Troubling news from Switzerland

just found this story to be both surprising and upsetting:

Quote:

---

Switzerland’s political right on Sunday scored a surprising victory in a referendum on banning construction of minarets, denting the nation’s cherished image as a bastion of tolerance and threatening to set it at odds with international law and the Muslim world.

The Swiss Constitution guarantees freedom of religion, but the rightist Swiss People’s Party, or S.V.P., and a small religious party proposed inserting a single sentence banning the construction of minarets, the towers that typically stand adjacent to mosques and serve to issue the Muslim call to prayer.

---

source: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/30/wo...0swiss.html?hp

this is one of the campaign's images:
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/...line/popup.jpg

Many European countries, especially those on the central-east, are seeing a troubling right-shift. i'm surprised to see this in Switzerland

This is pure bottom up democracy and no top bottom religion crap.

I am happy for them.

But than I look at the poster and it breads terror... that sucks.

heh atrax, read a little more carefully who pushed for these changes. are you sure about the no top bottom religious crap?

Yes LEVI I see it.

This country is a good example of democracy. It comes from the top you'll say but again its the bottom who choose and this for any of their laws.

The campaign was full of crap and terror I acknowledge. In the end we got to respect the choice of the people.

they must be running low on nazi gold.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by atRax

The campaign was full of crap and terror I acknowledge. In the end we got to respect the choice of the people.

---

First of all when you instill terror you shape people's opinions. Secondly, because of propaganda etc what "the people want" is not always is actually best. Not saying that this is anyway similar or on a similar scale but should we respect the people's desires in the past to shove the Jews in ovens? Or for the Hutus to think of the Tutsis as cockroach who should be exterminated?

Financial terror or Health terror or Religion terror name them they are everywhere today and sometimes it feels like a mental institution going to vote.. yes! I agree with you.

But between you and me don't you think that god doesn't give a sh*t about church bells or minaret?

Should we miss the time of the Shoguns who thought about sustainability and forbid the European or other religion to come in his land? Or President Trujillo in Dominican republic? Rapid growth and "laissez-faire" like in Rwanda or elsewhere was forecasted years before.

A radical approach needs to be put sometimes to what may be difficult to maintain in the future.

Bad use of type on a rather well designed (for a bad premise) poster. Guess propaganda is making a comeback.

Shrek?

lol- seems a bit like that doesn't it

What was shrek all about!?

Surprising indeed that the ban got voted in. And now it seems the 5th Minaret in Switzerland might not come anytime soon.

This is the result of a proposition and a special vote by the people. It shows that when people vote on something directly instead of letting the parliament decide the vote can be influenced strongly by special interests. Money will win. California is a good example for the bad.

It is not even clear whether that is constitutional and allowed. The government is strongly opposed to it.

As opposed to money going directly into politicians pockets. Remember all the chicken hearted Dems who opposed the war in iraq but then voted for it. Politicians are people too and just as if not more prone to the weaknesses of man.

Does a community have the right to say what is acceptable or unacceptable within it's own boundries?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Frets

As opposed to money going directly into politicians pockets. Remember all the chicken hearted Dems who opposed the war in iraq but then voted for it. Politicians are people too and just as if not more prone to the weaknesses of man.

Does a community have the right to say what is acceptable or unacceptable within it's own boundries?

---

In Switzerland there were a lot of communities (cities), where the ad against muslims was forbidden. So the communities spoke. However, we should leave law making to the politicians who represent us.

Proposition 13 (property tax) in CA is the best example how laws made by people and not the politicians can bankrupt a state.
Proposition 8 (gay rights) has been paid by big donors outside of CA who with lies manipulated people's opinion.

I agree the public can make bad decisions. However the further removed from the public becomes in decision making process the greater likelyhood of a dictatorship is taking root.

I think I finally got that Shrek comment. Wow.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by cancerinform

Proposition 13 (property tax) in CA is the best example how laws made by people and not the politicians can bankrupt a state.
Proposition 8 (gay rights) has been paid by big donors outside of CA who with lies manipulated people's opinion.

---

I couldn't agree more, but there is also one other problem with the proposition process in California. This state is simply too big, and due to it's geographic and demographically diverse communities, we frequently have too many varying interest groups voting in ways that differ from the coastal (more liberal) areas along the coast. Voters in SF and LA frequently become the minority in these prop votes...unfortunately, the outcomes tend to affect residents from those areas most adversely.

I say split CA into 3 states and let them all live in peace.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Frets

Politicians are people too and just as if not more prone to the weaknesses of man.

---

I wonder how many politicians (starters, not bench warmers) really had to go through life experiencing the stresses of everyday survival. What exactly does their pool of emotions look like when they go to cast a vote? If money or consequences were never really an issue, what life lessons are the bringing to the table?

I'm not saying that a spoiled politician is less likely to make a wise decision than an uninformed citizen, just that the "right thing to do" has never been much of a mystery and to know it and do something else is likely influences more by a trait other than weakness.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jAQUAN

...just that the "right thing to do" has never been much of a mystery...

---

100% disagree. Way too much opinion involved when making blanket statements like the 'right thing to do.' What is right for one may not be right for all. In certain veru obvious cases, yes, you are correct. In most cases, the gray area becomes much too intrusive.

gray area = ignoring your conscience * oath of office.

You're seriously saying that there is simply one 'right' answer to every political dilemma? I guess we really DON'T need the two party system anymore, then... :rolleyes:

Well there's "will get me re-elected" right and "good for the majority" right. I'll give you that, all things considered, 'right' may not be readily apparent but I will say it exists for any given situation.

Well, that's an incredibly myopic view of the world of politics you've got there. Good luck with that.

Are you saying you've had boundless success with yours? How is asserting that I've got it all wrong any less myopic?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jAQUAN

Are you saying you've had boundless success with yours? How is asserting that I've got it all wrong any less myopic?

---

I didn't say you've got it all wrong -- I actually said you were right in very limited circumstances, but your blanket statement could mot be applied 100% of the time. I was questioning YOUR assertion that there is basically a right and a wrong solution, which, on these boards, easily translates into 'your way or the highway.' That, in essence, is myopic. My viewpoint of saying that there is very possibly more positions than your very limited 'right' and 'wrong' is actually quite the opposite of myopic. 10,000 foot view, dude. Gotta step back and see the forest for the trees, sometimes.

My assertion that there is a right way to do things in no way suggested that I know what it is. I've always tried to maintain that I'm not qualified to take sides on issues I don't know enough about. I'm only putting forward that more things are black and white than we'd like to admit.

The Swiss would do a world of good if they ban all the underground people from having Bank accounts in their country.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jAQUAN

My assertion that there is a right way to do things in no way suggested that I know what it is. I've always tried to maintain that I'm not qualified to take sides on issues I don't know enough about. I'm only putting forward that more things are black and white than we'd like to admit.

---

I'd say that, in government, most decisions are about better or worse rather than right or wrong.

^ That's extremely depressing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jAQUAN

^ That's extremely depressing.

---

How come?

Many of the decisions involve how to spend our resources to best serve us. People with different needs and interests are going to want the resources spent differently. I don't know how you can determine whether spending money on a public park is right or wrong. It's more just a matter of whether it serves us better or worse than some other way that the resources could have been spent.

I do think that I understand what you're getting at regarding right and wrong though. I've had the same feeling at times that "we can't all be right." A lot of times, two debating parties hold claim to being right.

"Understanding is a three edged sword" - Kosh

Still what is Shrek all about?

Right, wrong, better, worse, all personal judgements. Fortunately there are politicians to point the finger at whenever we feel that things aren't benefiting us.

But I'd like to think that politicians base their decisions that are beneficial to the majority, while NOT perturbing the minority.

Unfortunately in the Swiss' Minaret outcome, I don't know how beneficial it gets (for majorities) with that ban. Perhaps now there's a controlled number of possible minarets falling onto passers by, I dunno~

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jAQUAN

"Understanding is a three edged sword" - Kosh

---

"Clear explanations are mighty useful." -Me

;)

I was just truncating your last post.

First and best Babylon 5 quote evar.

There is one side of the story, There is the opposing side of the story and then there is the actual story. Understanding requires you know all three.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jAQUAN

I was just truncating your last post.

---

Got it now. Had gone right over my head. I thought Kosh was one of the spice girls. :D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Frets

First and best Babylon 5 quote evar.

There is one side of the story, There is the opposing side of the story and then there is the actual story. Understanding requires you know all three.

---

My science fiction wisdom needs to be updated. "Do or do not... there is no try" is still my last note. :)