Printable View
Java, C++, Basic, Cobol.... these are all high level languages written by programmers so that you won't have to learn assembly language. When was the last time any of you programmed with 0s and 1s? Why use a programming language at all? The answer is of course to make it easier to achieve the goals we want.Quote:
Originally posted by senocular
You are all newbies. Why are you using Flash? Why not use Java?
no problem kay, I got ya ;)
Everyone seems to be against me on this one. I think a lot of that revolves around programmer-pride. AS a programmer you dont like the fact that other people would be able to get a free ride off of your hard earned/produced code. Sure you dont mind teaching other people - that gives you a stronger sense in pride by demonstrating your supirior knowledge and abilities to others, helping them learn the concept in your image. Then perhaps you are looked up upon and seen as a genious and a hero. You can be admired by those "kids" or be respected by your peers. Who doesnt want that? With a pre-packeged text file game engine, you have none of that. Just a mess of code which people download and use on their own with no concept of who you may be other than a possible name thrown in with the engine code. There is no direct interaction with programmer and implimenter and therefor no glorification ensues, hense its deemed unfavorable. I doubt any of you will admit that, but thats a strong basis for the foundation which this system works.
Fla's are similar, though the user-creator interaction is increased. There involves a direct visual relationship which is much more obvious than with a text based game engine as flas are basically developed versions of such engines presented in a finalized and impressive manner. This gives greater recognition to the creator whos name, email and website are probably all embedded within (visually).
... a blurry line exists here though. These very flas which are abundant here at FK are used just in the same manner many people here seem to be against. They are downloaded and the graphics are changed to suit the likes of the new creator who now has a new work based on someone elses blood and sweat. Though I havent seen anything extremely developed, the same concept exists.
text file game engines wont have everything pre-configured and already completed in a working example though. They would merely provide a framework for a game which could be developed from pre-existing code. There still requires a lot development and more than just changing the graphics, but the basis from which the final game will be based upon would not have to be made from scratch by the creator of the game.
Its this kind of basis that we as programmers should be embracing and sharing with each other. No given "engin" has to be used as is, it can be changed and reworked, but it does give the groundwork from which a certain kind of game can be produced.
which is exactly what game engines can offerQuote:
Originally posted by nicholas.w
Java, C++, Basic, Cobol.... these are all high level languages written by programmers so that you won't have to learn assembly language. When was the last time any of you programmed with 0s and 1s? Why use a programming language at all? The answer is of course to make it easier to achieve the goals we want.
.When are you tired of not reusing code like a game engine in Flash? After writing 100 lines of code? 1000? 10000?Quote:
Originally posted by senocular
which is exactly what game engines can offerQuote:
Originally posted by nicholas.w
Java, C++, Basic, Cobol.... these are all high level languages written by programmers so that you won't have to learn assembly language. When was the last time any of you programmed with 0s and 1s? Why use a programming language at all? The answer is of course to make it easier to achieve the goals we want.
I think understanding a game engine and develop it further takes more time than doing it from scratch.
/Tomas
okay - maybe we have to differentiate a bit.
when you have an engine as a text file you need an understanding of the language or you won´t know what it does and you won´t be able to create a game out of it. so in this case such an engine can make a positive contribution to the development. senocular: i understand your opinion. it has some good points.
but i was thinking more of the open source fla´s than of text file engines.
k.
great debate guys, im gonna stay neutral on this one. no time for arguments :D
A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away, there was a community known as the MUGEN community. It was basically a create your own 2-d Fight Game Engine for PC (and now Linux).
A lot of people "quit" the community because it was hard to program an entire character from start to finish (from coding to sprites) but someone else could change the sprites from your character and got just as much credit as you, if not more.
While I highly doubt people will be "quitting" Flash left and right, people's egos can be bruised if they worked hard on some new game only to have someone release something similiar that was just downloaded from somewhere.
Good thing? Bad thing? You decided...
I think it would be cooler to team up the artists and the good programmers...
Look at this game where Tom Fulp (programmer) teamed with an artist known as SYNJ (Artist):
http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view.php?id=59593
Both people get equal credit because without the cool animation, it wouldn't be the same game. And without the programming, this game could not have as much functionality as it does.
So what's my point: I have no problem with the game engine as long as people give props to the engine!
-pXw
http://board.flashkit.com/board/imag...2001/10/77.gif good position.Quote:
Originally posted by mbenney
great debate guys, im gonna stay neutral on this one. no time for arguments :D
man newgrounds has really gotten bloated. I remember back in the day near when it first started adn there were only a few in house animations total. aaaah memories :D
what the hell am i doing in here.
actually i´m the grapgic designer. so i gonna browse the open source directory and create some games ;)
k.
(OT)Quote:
Originally posted by senocular
http://board.flashkit.com/board/imag...2001/10/77.gif good position.Quote:
Originally posted by mbenney
great debate guys, im gonna stay neutral on this one. no time for arguments :D
man newgrounds has really gotten bloated. I remember back in the day near when it first started adn there were only a few in house animations total. aaaah memories :D
Yep, I remember back when there was only a few flash movies to see...
I probably wouldn't be here if it wasn't for Newgrounds, so I always check them out every once in awhile...
-pXw
OMG I just got my ass reamed in that game! but very cool! :DQuote:
Originally posted by WilloughbyJackson
Look at this game where Tom Fulp (programmer) teamed with an artist known as SYNJ (Artist):
http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view.php?id=59593
WilloughbyJackson: Good point.
Well if someone doing better with "downloaded game" than my hard work i shouldn't finish it, and starting with a new better unique project :P
Hm...I often do CPU critic flashes and need to optimize and shorten code as much as possible, then a standard OOP template seems unnecessary and problematic. Just the way I'm looking at it.
/Tomas
[Edited by erixon on 08-09-2002 at 01:04 PM]
My point is that with these engines, they are released open source for use by anyone including noobies. If you dont want your ego bruised, dont post your source......simple.Quote:
Originally posted by WilloughbyJackson
...people's egos can be bruised if they worked hard on some new game only to have someone release something similiar that was just downloaded from somewhere.
I meant for this post to be the start of a group who are willing to allow others to use their work without getting credit.
I am sick of things becoming about who gets the credit. I DONT CARE IF I GET CREDIT. And if you do care if you get credit then only release code to people you can trust to do so. If you really care about credit then i dont think that Flashkit Board and Movies sections are for you. Credit doesnt exist unless the user is honest. If you put your code up there you damn well better expect it to be ripped off.
My point is with the text based coding you must look through it and learn how to use the engine...without at least some knowledge of AS you will never be able to use the engine.
I am giving out the engines to be used open-source, without me getting any credit. If you wanna credit us then fine, but I dont require it and therefore allow the world to use it free of ANY charge, be it money, credit, trade, what-have-you.
Ian
If the originator of the code doesn't give a damn about credit, I don't give a damn about credit.Quote:
Originally posted by Aware0
I am sick of things becoming about who gets the credit. I DONT CARE IF I GET CREDIT. And if you do care if you get credit then only release code to people you can trust to do so. If you really care about credit then i dont think that Flashkit Board and Movies sections are for you. Credit doesnt exist unless the user is honest. If you put your code up there you damn well better expect it to be ripped off.
I am giving out the engines to be used open-source, without me getting any credit. If you wanna credit us then fine, but I dont require it and therefore allow the world to use it free of ANY charge, be it money, credit, trade, what-have-you.
In my mind, credit and ego are two seperate things.
I was just bring up the ego thing because that's the issue which I have always seen whenever something is made easier for the masses. If some guy spend one year creating their dream game, and someone else can create something similar in about a month, egos will often get bruised.
Sad but true...
Don't get me wrong, I'm not against creating a game engine. I just had a point to say, and I've said it.
Carry on... :D
-pXw
It is an interesting thread ...
Well, lots of things have already been said ...
The point i wanted to make is : what is the real goal of that forum ?
- if it's to been around other programmers for tips and advices, of course, nobody really wants the open source to be ripped without any consideration
- if it's to show-off programmation / GFX skills, then, it's pretty much the same ...
- if it's to build a community of people sharing the same interests (games) then, the fact that open source is re-used, even woithout credit, shouldn't be a problem ...
Well, i knd of understand the "ego" problem ... i'm not a great coder, so nobody have never "ripped" any code from me ...or if that personn did, i have the satisfaction to know that he/she could have had much better somewhere else ...
Though, i'm a better grafic designer, and once in a while i can see pieces of my work re-used, and people claiming them as theirs ...
This doesn't please me ... but i know it's a fault too : of course it's unfair, of course it's kind of stealing ... but if i release my work on the web, without any protection of any kind, i know what to expect ... and even farther, i once mailed a guy because he ripped GFX on one of my site, slightly changed them, and finally came up with a much better idea than mine ...
I think that's the main thing in the problem is that people on that forum work for free ...what i mean is that they developp their games, not for a company, but in order to learn, or to push flash in it's limit ...
The only advantage that you get working for free ( beside learning ) is "peer recognition" ....and of course "peer recognition" is not really compatible with the idea of being stolen, ripped etc etc etc ...
Well, their is no real answer to that since it deals with human nature and pride ( grummmpf ! ) though i would like to bring you that fact : i came to Flash after having seen the YUGOP.COM site ... Nakamura ( may be spelled wrong ) as well as Odendaal, Davis(...) are recognized among their peers, not only for their talent, but also for their abilitie to communicate their work and created the next generation of designers/coders for Flash ... These guys are the real winners of the "flash world" ;
All that i know in Flash is from open source code : trying to re-use it, adaptating previous code to my needs, so learning how things were made is what made me able to further code myself, that created even interest in other langages as Javascript or php ...
Don't expect a designer to fall in love with coding without showing him that it is something within its capabilities : then, he might get hooked, and even if he doesn't becomes half-a-god in Actionscript or whatever, he will sure turn into someone that will be able to greatly interact with a coder ...
A last word on collaboration : of course the best way to work is to optimize each other's competences, but even in that optimization, knowing each other's world is the key of an effective team collaboration ...
The designer that plunge in open source to change the GFX and make an engine looks better-than-the-original is already making a step in learning code and getting familiar with it ...
About the engines, i totally with senocular : people should be able to create new games relying on previous game engine models : in the game industry, that happens a lot, and i'm far to believe that innovation in that sense is always the key of a well made game : some guys did an incredible job with Quake II engine while everybody was moving towards the new Unreal engine ( see the game i'm speaking about ??;)) ... Sometimes, re-using of a product can also leads to optimization, improvement or just the challenge to use it another way as it was originally designed for...
Well, i could carry on hours on the subject : open source, from my point of view, is something really positive for the flash community ...teamwork or giving the credits to whom its due is even greater ...
waoo this thread is quite big and some posting are so lenghty i can barely read it :)
i am an intermediate actionscripetr maybe less :(
i do this stuff as a hobby .. i like to help people whenever i can
and still dont know much about OOP well i know what it is but never really used i think it will be a cool idea having pre made engines i would have to learn a little more on oop in order to use these angines right?
what i mean is that you need some OOP knoledge to be able to use OOP engines which a common newbie wont probably have
i would give away these engines only by mail or passworded sites and only to those people who actually we know they want to learn programming or at least trying to (like me :))
i am with senocular on this
go senocular go go go :D
im a NooB, and something i want to say is that it is a good idea, and not all the newbies are thieves, remember you were a noob someday and maybe still be, but as you can lern from me i can learn from your code !! good [post, the idea of engines, doesnt take creativity, because only going to help when you get stuck, also it doesnt matter if i wanted to create my version of anybody game with having in mind that only you are going to code that game to learn from it...
the engine idea take all that out, because you only use the specific engine you are looking for, and thats all, you change and learn from that source...
with a good engine, you really wouldnt have to understand OOP as much as you would just have to know how to use it. And that can be fairly verbose and striaghtforward if the engine allows for it. Something like:
CreateWorld("mapClip")
Fred = new Character()
Fred.livesIn("straw house")
etc. etc.
Where the code (explained in a readme) can be as simple as following a few instructions and knowing what parameters to include. MX is a little better in this respect because of event handler definitions, being capable of completely constructing and running a movie through one code base. But knowing the inner workings of OOP wont be needed, just knowing what to write down where and knowing what numbers to stick in to make things work the way you want to.
i thought of something similar awhile back and we could all work together on it....
when you create a function that seems to be helpful than you could post it for others to use. i think this is what was in mind here. i have written a couple functions like charactermove() or selectcharacter() things like that...if these could help someone with a similar problem i would love to get them out....
if we all just commented our functions and compile them together it would really help people out
and its not like youre writing the code for them because they would have to understand how it works and when to use it and such..
hording your code is never good for advancement....if you have a state of the art idea...get a patent...if not let other people use it too
justathought
Dont get me wrong. Big Willie Gates is a great mind at hard working on improving the technology world. But he was the one that told all his friends to start patenting their code and stop sharing, he didnt like the idea of open-source.
In my opinion, open-source is awsome, as long as you dont abuse it totally.
Most flash Gurus sit on these forums and talk with people about their projects, make people examples, even allow some to see the sources for their own projects to get feedback. Obviously they save the stuff they have worked hard on for their own projects, and I agree with them on that. Froth for instance. He is a Guru that pops up here once and again. He is always making examples for people for AI in a game, for different programming techniques. He isnt worried about all the stealing because he can still make stuff that will blow away all the probono work.
If you came to these forums looking for "glory" or peer recognition and are afraid of letting others dabble in your code, then maybe you should try the showcase forum instead of this one.
Which brings me to my next point......getting back to the engines....
If up to this point you disagree with me totally and hate my guts for posting this thread, leave now
Good, now that everyone here is on the same page, lets start out with some ideas of what would make good engines.
People start listing the basic aspects of different styles of games and lets see if we cant create some engines, or function libraries as someone suggested earlier.
My first idea is for a Diablo2 style RPG -
Step 1 - OOP designed 2D world (top-down)
any suggeestions or code?