firefox, a moze by any other name

Napalm.

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Do a search on Google for IE bugs. All the major virusses of the last couple of years were caused by fundemental flaws in either Internet Explorer or Windows itself. Some of the have been fixed, some not. The fact that a recent patch of Windows opened up previously patched security holes speaks volumes.

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can you substantiate this with a link please? :rolleyes:
i have already searched for ie bugs, ie vulnerabilities, and ie holes.
before i posted i did a bit of homework to make sure.
yes i know and most other people know that windows was absolutely awful for security but sp2 changed all that i believe.

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To illustrate the vulnerability of Windows - I had a system crash a week ago. The techie who re-installed forgot to patch it. Within an hour of booting up I was infected with trojans. It cost me downloading close on 80 mb of patches, running a spyware program, re-installing another, running antivirus, editing my registry, as well as 3 online scans before getting rid of it.

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there is a little red shield that pops up in windows xp with sp2 that tells you that your system or antivirus prog is not up to date, that was your problem, ignore it at your peril.. :)

ngen

Firefox renders fast.
Firefox code is clean and neat and works!
Firefox is a tiny install for such a powerful tool.
Firefox can be totally 100% customised.
Firefox has hundreds of ad-ins.
Firefox has hundreds of themes.
Firefox is quick to use (i love my mouse gestures!).
Firefox blocks all ADS (or at least the ones i want it too).
Firefox has tabbed browsing.
Firefox looks and functions the way i want. My firefox works excactly the way i need it too.

darkstar let me ask you this, if you wanted the scrollbar to disapear everytime a page was less than a page long in order to give greater viewing space could IE do that?

If you wanted to search any majour directory on the internet in a single button......could IE do that?

If you wanted to tell IE excactly how to render code.....could it do that?

If you wanted to strip a page of its CSS styling with the click of a button.......could IE do that?

If you wanted to check a pages validity and get a speed report at the click of a button......could IE do that?

If you wanted to re-code a page's CSS LIVE (i.e. as you browsed) ......could IE do that?

If you wanted IE to respond to your mouses movement and then perform ANY custom function as a result ......could IE do that?

For example, on my system when i make the letter B with my mouse the page is bookmarked, when i make the letter S with my mouse the page's source is displayed, when i make the letter H with my mouse i go straight to my home page.



The answers no mate.



Firefox is a powerful tool......and its here to stay.

And dont think i'm some die hard techie fan, ive only been using it for a month and i've already seen a serious improvement in web browsing speed and as a web developer the developer tools ad-in is absolutely indispensable
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tell that to my girlfriend when she's looking for a job, her face would be :mad: :confused: sort of a mixture of both.
not that she's stupid she just uses the net and wants to do things the easiest way in a way she understands. :)



ihoss.com

Youve got some ideas very wrong:

"Why would people use a browser that can't display web pages properly and in some cases renders them useless?"

"do you think that all of the "lazy programmers" are going to update their sites for the 5% (estimated) of web users that use mozilla based browsers?"

Because it follows the rules. I don't expect hte lazy ass programers to update their sites, I expect new programers to make propper sites and the old programers to make new sites. I had some old sites that did not work in FireFox (and Actually didn't look right on any other machine than mine) so I started over again. If you don't care about rules, then rob a bank instead of going to school/working. You will get a much better life.

i dont think casual browsers care much about the rules, i and most other people only care when things dont work.
as to robbing a bank? what's that got to do with comparing browsers? :eek:

all i can say is from a devlopers point of view firefox is the only browser to use.......(ok there might be others) but it definately isnt IE.

I only use IE for a few things these days. When I have to log in to my personal drive on campus from home, I have to use IE because Firefox won't let me log in. I don't see it as something to blame Firefox for. If anyone is to blame, it's the developers who introduced the new personal drive functionality at MATC.

These days, I try very hard to design for more than just IE. I've been testing my pages in both IE and Firefox to make sure they display correctly. When I was working at LDS in website maintenance, I did this same thing.

i totally agree with developers using firefox, the web needs compliancy but ie displays compliant and non compliant websites properly, whilst mozilla based browsers do not.
unfortunately (or fortunately depending on your point of view),most web browsers are not developers and really dont care what browser they use as long as it works.
the majority of internet users have windows so ie is the default browser of choice.
im not saying its right but thats the way it is.
ps, i dont want to argue with anyone, i'm just trying to be pragmatic. :)

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Originally posted by darkstar
the bottom line is:
i can open any site using ie but i can't with firefox.

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Really? Please check out http://www.literarymoose.info/=/css.xhtml

There are some sites that Firefox actually deals better with than IE, and www.hotmail.com is one of them. If you go to print a hotmail message using IE6 without first clicking on the Print View button the page will only print out 1 advertisement and completely miss your entire email. Where as Firefox will print everything fine and dandy.

This might not seem like a major thing to most of you, but I work in an Internet Café and when you have several customers in a minute that have all went to print their emails only to find out that it didnt print you get a mess. I couldn't begin to count the amount of waste pages that have occured from this alone, but you could certainly make several trees from it.

Its irritating because its such a simple thing to fix, yet Microsoft can't be arsed getting their own email service to intergrate well with its own Internet Browser.

Tsala

i'm impressed, that is possibly the first link that i hav'nt been able to open with ie, ie wanted to save it and would'nt open it.

so i swallow my words, i stand corrected.

if i had come across it normally i would have assumed the site did'nt work properly and forgotten about it so perhaps there are more sites like this out there.

it is a very nice looking site (i opened it with firebird)though its a pity that 90% of internet users can't see it..

i do see your point but dont you think its a bit self defeating for a site to be unopenable by the most popular browser in the world?

lol, i remind myself of clint eastwood, "the most powerful handgun in the world" :mrpimp:

I'd say so. I tried opening that link and IE asked if I wanted to download it.

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most web browsers are not developers and really dont care what browser they use as long as it works.

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Actually, most people have no idea what a web browser is. If you point at the IE icon and ask what it opens they will say the Internet, not Internet Explorer. Quite sad actually :(

http://www.internetnews.com/security...le.php/3374931
http://slashdot.org/articles/04/07/02/...


The reason some things "dont work" while using firefox is because the website that is being viewed is not made correctly. You can look at many webpages in IE and then go to w3c.org and check the validity of them, and in many times you will see that they are not standards complient. The internet is a constantly growing place, but as we all know, there are people/developers stuck in the past. The internet is moving towards a more standardized place... Not so much in the way they look and act, but how it is created and how it is viewed. IE is one of those things stuck in the old way. They do not adhere to standards compliency, and thus you see differences between the browsers. (This doesn't mean that developers should ignore the old... a website should work on old and new.)

There are other things to look at regarding firefox, however. It has been proven that internet explorer has a horrid lack of security. It also has no popup blocker built in, you must get a different program to get the advantages of popup blocking. I have seen so many computers that are infested with spyware and adware, and by installing firefox and cleaning up the problems that IE left behind, no more problems have been encountered.

By now I'm probably ranting, mainly because I have been tuning in and out of this episode of Law & Order: SVU. Bottom line is: with IE, you have to get extra software, constantly DL patches, etc etc.... With firefox, you don't have to do a thing except install it.



Regards,



LP

Hey there everyone,

I (being a standards geek) am very passionate about this issue....

darkstar,

You seem to be commenting from a developer's point of view, targeting the rendering similarity to IE.

I actually come across very few sites that Firefox does not view properly. And when I do, I do still have IE just in case. Firefox has this rendering mode called "Quirks Mode" that renders the page more like IE when the page seems to be designed for IE (for example, lack of standards support, sloppy code, IE-specific crud, etc)

You are forgetting the rest of the browser. Think again about this:

Firefox is extremely customizable
Firefox has hundreds of extensions for just about anything
Firefox is faster
Firefox is more convenient (tabbed browsing, search bar, bookmarks bar, etc.)
Firefox is still more secure

You want vulnerabilities? I'll give you vulnerabilities-
http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1759,1639276,00.asp
http://www.pcworld.com/news/article/0,aid,117452,00.asp

Look at the history... IE was bad before when everyone thought it was secure, and now everyone thinks it's secure again..... what do you think will happen next? (or what already has!)

Have you ever updated IE because of a new security hole? You bet! All of us Firefox users have downloaded... how many security updates? Myself, I've downloaded one, and I've had FF for almost a year. How many security holes have you patched?

In case you don't think standards matter...
http://webstandards.psu.edu/articles...bStandards.cfm

And look at all of the ways Explorer has failed in rendering:
http://www.quirksmode.org/
Look at all the hacks needed to fix Explorer to make it work correctly!

Firefox is open-source. Why is open-source good?
http://www.redhat.com/about/mission/opensource.html

And, believe it or not, some people really do code for standards-compliant browsers rather than IE. Look at all the places that use the <abbr> tag and :hover pseudo-classes on <input> search tags.... There are neat things you can do when you use the web like it should be used ;-)

I'm done ranting now... :-)

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Originally posted by darkstar
Napalm.
can you substantiate this with a link please? :rolleyes:
i have already searched for ie bugs, ie vulnerabilities, and ie holes.
before i posted i did a bit of homework to make sure.
yes i know and most other people know that windows was absolutely awful for security but sp2 changed all that i believe.

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Oh look, another virus exploiting a IE flaw :D
http://news.com.com/2100-7349_3-5443828.html

XP SP2 fixes some issues, but there is a huge number of programs thats gets screwed up because of it - that includes a number of MS products.
http://microsoft.weblogsinc.com/entry/3238014134623324/
http://www.winnetmag.com/Windows/Art...ows_43798.html

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there is a little red shield that pops up in windows xp with sp2 that tells you that your system or antivirus prog is not up to date, that was your problem, ignore it at your peril.. :)

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My antivirus and spyware scanners was up to date, and it still let stuff in. The issue with the Windows patches I've taken up with the techie - I buried him in my garden.

L0stPr0fet

its evident that you were watching tv

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The reason some things "dont work" while using firefox is because the website that is being viewed is not made correctly. You can look at many webpages in IE and then go to w3c.org and check the validity of them, and in many times you will see that they are not standards complient. The internet is a constantly growing place, but as we all know, there are people/developers stuck in the past. The internet is moving towards a more standardized place... Not so much in the way they look and act, but how it is created and how it is viewed. IE is one of those things stuck in the old way. They do not adhere to standards compliency, and thus you see differences between the browsers. (This doesn't mean that developers should ignore the old... a website should work on old and new.)



i think this subject has been adequately covered in this thread, why post about it again?

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There are other things to look at regarding firefox, however. It has been proven that internet explorer has a horrid lack of security. It also has no popup blocker built in, you must get a different program to get the advantages of popup blocking. I have seen so many computers that are infested with spyware and adware, and by installing firefox and cleaning up the problems that IE left behind, no more problems have been encountered.


do your homework before you post., did you actually bother to read all of this thread?
no pop up blocker? really? evidently you know what you are talking about.:doughnut:

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By now I'm probably ranting, mainly because I have been tuning in and out of this episode of Law & Order: SVU. Bottom line is: with IE, you have to get extra software, constantly DL patches, etc etc.... With firefox, you don't have to do a thing except install it.


its only been out for 3 days or so, lets see about that shall we?

by the way, your links are pre sp2 so, way out of date.








Snib

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You seem to be commenting from a developer's point of view, targeting the rendering similarity to IE.


i suggest you read the whole thread, you should see that i am talking from the end user side not the developer side :rolleyes:

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You are forgetting the rest of the browser. Think again about this
Firefox is extremely customizable
Firefox has hundreds of extensions for just about anything
Firefox is faster
Firefox is more convenient (tabbed browsing, search bar, bookmarks bar, etc.)
Firefox is still more secure:




i am not forgetting anything as far as i know, i have tried firefox thank you, so dont assume anything and please read the whole thread before you post.

again your links are pre sp2 so, way out of date, do your homework boy :rolleyes:


Napalm
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Oh look, another virus exploiting a IE flaw


http://news.com.com/2100-7349_3-5443828.html

The flaw does not affect Windows XP Service Pack 2, Secunia said.

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XP SP2 fixes some issues, but there is a huge number of programs thats gets screwed up because of it - that includes a number of MS products.


http://microsoft.weblogsinc.com/entry/3238014134623324/
http://www.winnetmag.com/Windows/Ar...dows_43798.html

lets stick to browsers for now, thats another subject.

SO, what exactly is it you don't like about FF and like about IE?

ihoss, i'm not going to repeat myself, read the whole thread.
i think i expressed my likes and dislikes adequately.

The one big thing I don't like about IE is all it's security holes. Even though I have downloaded Firefox and am using it more than IE, I haven't stopped using Internet Explorer. Snib is very right about the fact that Firefox is more secure than IE and, like him, I still have IE for when I come across a page that either crashes Firefox or there's something that Firefox can't do.

Again, as I have said before, Firefox is NOT to be blamed when it comes across a page it can't render properly. If anything, it's the web designers fault because they didn't take the time to make sure their site would display uniformily in IE as well as other browsers. I still remember this one thing that Snib said to me a while ago very well. "If web designers stopped coding for IE, people would stop using it." To be honest, I agree with that statement. I'm actually trying to keep web standards in mind as I finish the HTML portion of my portfolio.

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Originally posted by Covenent
There are some sites that Firefox actually deals better with than IE, and www.hotmail.com is one of them. If you go to print a hotmail message using IE6 without first clicking on the Print View button the page will only print out 1 advertisement and completely miss your entire email. Where as Firefox will print everything fine and dandy.

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I agree. This whole printing issue with IE and Firefox is a good thing to consider. I tried the Print Preview function in Firefox and I got what I expected.

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The one big thing I don't like about IE is all it's security holes. Even though I have downloaded Firefox and am using it more than IE, I haven't stopped using Internet Explorer. Snib is very right about the fact that Firefox is more secure than IE and, like him, I still have IE for when I come across a page that either crashes Firefox or there's something that Firefox can't do.

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yawn. up to date link please..



Latest Mozilla releases fix 10 security flaws
link - http://news.com.com/2100-1002-5368397.html
gosh, mozilla and firebird have had security flaws :yikes:

i dont use hotmail so i cant comment but has anyone thought of reporting this to bill?

I hate IE

Oh yeah, and darkstar, saying that the problems are solved with XP SP2 is poor argument as it only applies to users of Windows XP (no macs, no win 2k, no win 2k3, no win 98 and so on), plus it requires a download and installation. So, just because you have SP2, does not mean that you can ignore everyone else when their ideas apply to non-SP2 specifics.

I can tell you that IE does not render pages the same way cross-version or even cross-browser.

Sorry, no links from me, it comes from personal experience that fully justifies my hatred

:)

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Originally posted by darkstar
gosh, mozilla and firebird have had security flaws

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I've yet to see beta applications that didn't have flaws.

But wait... they fixed the flaws before their public release. What a novel concept.