Too bad KM cannot handle 2D character animation

I'm telling ya Bob,..it's quite simple to tweak variable width lines. Xara is even easier than that! Granted Xara is not a 2D animation program,..but you can create animated gifs. It is vector though and tweaking a variable width line in it and Expression 3.3 is a BREEZE.

It truly separates a line that just sits there from a line that attracts interest to the eye.

As far as Price point? Well have a KoolMoves Pro version. Or a KoolMoves Broadcast Version and raise the price a bit,..I don't know. Yes,..there are some 2D animation apps out there that can help in the production of TV animation,..but the ones that are worth anything hang around at the $1,000.00 price range. I think you could still blow that away. Heck even Flash hovers in at around 500. I think.

Moho is a great animation app,..but it does have some issues,...still it keeps getting better and it sells for $99. I thin it will be awesome in about 2 years. It has some audio issues and still lacks a few things,..but perhaps I should just sit tight for awhile and wait for it because it will be the best very soon. For under $100.00 it is hard to argue with it. KoolMoves has an advantage in that it already has the Flash features and functionality going on. It just lacks some of the polish for serious 2D animation work. For web design stuff,..KM is very HARD to beat!!!!

@TDolce

I don't recall how long it took but I'm sure it was a few hours. Koolmoves has always seemed very intuitive to me though and seldom used the Help files early on. But I have done very little Action Scripting.

I used Xara's .wmf conversion back then but there are more import/export options in both programs now.

If you draw your image in Xara WITH NO outlines you can export from Xara as a .wmf or .swf and then Import to Koolmoves with nice clean shapes outline free ready to be edited. (I just did it to check)

Of course not many programs can handle Xara's remarkable gradients and transparencies but simple filled shapes work well in Koolmoves.

BTW I also have Xara X1 too (great program) but was very busy with a local campaign from last April to November and now we're moving so I'm busy again, sadly my "art time" has been limited.

PS.
When Importing .wmf from Xara to Koolmoves use the highest "point reduction" possible, 9:1 and when Importing .swf files make it an "editable movie".

Hope this is of some help.

I bet that everybody posting on this thread already knows what I'm about to say, so this is mostly for the benefit of those who happen by and may be considering KM.

While it's true that KM doesn't have a variable line width capability per se, getting variable line width in your art is really simple. I draw a shape, then make a copy of that shape. I make the copy black (since I want a black line - your color may vary) and put this black copy right behind the original shape. I then slightly enlarge the black copy (which I'll now refer to as the line shape). I select points on the line shape and tweak it to get the effect I want. Then I group the line shape and the original shape so that they stay together as a unit. Here's a quick example of the resulting look using a somewhat familiar face:

http://www.hauntlands.com/images/joker01.gif

A more intricate and original example of this technique can be seen here.

Nice work around Matt! It is definately a doable workaround as you have so generously exhibited,..but I was more looking for that reaction you get from the pen hitting the tablet and creating the variable width line as you apply more or less pressure. There's something about that that cannot be replaced.

That being said,...your workaround,..well,..it works. You can achieve that look with a bit of unconventional effort or preplanning.I will say this about the KM crowd here,...whatever features KM lacks,..you seem to find workarounds to get the results your after. Isn't that always the way with many apps these days.

I'm probably just going to dive in and purchase Flash (much to my chagrin) and just start pumping out some work as my storyboard is getting closer to completion. I'm looking to design a TV pilot episode to submit to the networks. (It will be a very short segment) to present and show off my concept. I was just kinda shopping around for a software program that will make it just a tad less painful.

By the way Matt,...is that haunted lands toon going to be done in KM?


Todd

@evolbeagle

That's a great technique, didn't know about it..Thanks!

Bob C.

Todd:

Quote:

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I was more looking for that reaction you get from the pen hitting the tablet and creating the variable width line as you apply more or less pressure. There's something about that that cannot be replaced.

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Yeah, what I'm doing is definitely a work-around/imitation of that. I tend to do most of my drawing with a mouse, so I don't miss the pressure-sensitive width variation like others do. It would still be a nice feature, though.

Quote:

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By the way Matt,...is that haunted lands toon going to be done in KM?

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I've gone back and forth over whether to do an animation or a web comic. I'm leaning towards web comic because of the simpler work load (no sound, etc.). But either way, the project will be initially drawn in KoolMoves (and exported to a gif, png or jpg if it's a web comic).

Bob C.:

Your welcome! Glad I could help.

Evol,

I'd be interested in seeing that web comic once you finish it.

I wonder if Bob will be releasing a "major" update to KM anytime soon? I'm not sure how often KM gets updates as I really haven't followed the program much since it's very early beginnings.

TD

Quote:

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Originally posted by TDolce
Bob,..

Hi. OK Bob,..to be fair,..I'll take a crack at this...

1) a Nice drawing tool that has a variable line width option so one can use their Wacom and get a nice variable line. (Thick to thin)It can be set to respond to pen pressure or automatically create variable line widths dependding on your min and max settings. This is HUGE!!! Most 2D apps with the exception of the Tab,..have poor quality line repoduction such that when you make a curve,..the line is choppy and not smooth. This drives me nuts!! The Tab did it right as did PAP.

2) The ability to accept imported scans and automatically vectorize the scan ( a quality vectorizing tool) allowing the image to now be totally editable.

3) More audio/soundtrack conrols. A nice lip synch tool or plugin that simplifies the arduous task of creating lip syncs.

3) a magnet tool that grabs a point on any line and allows you to freely move it, stretch it,..bend it etc.

4) A nice automatic inbetweening (Tweening) feature for cutting down the time for some tedious tasks.

5) The ability to save character designs with their properties as self contained clips or symbols so that they can be re-used over and over again.

6) A quality camera panning tool. This is critical for serious animation.

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I have been trying to teach myself KM to create my own 2d minitoon series/ comic its been slow going so I feel your pain lol.

I was wondering if any of you had used toon boom? It has 2d animation in a 3d space and a lipsynch function. It also alows you to erase a parts of the vector image without messing with points and such. I have played with the program a few times and seems like its more art oriented. Also toon boom connects direcly to illustrator and has its own vectorizing tools (similar to streamline). Its big limits is it does not support morphing the same way most flash progs do.
Just my 2 cents


Aaron
_______________

www.justanotherepicfable.com (work in progress)

be kind, im new :D

I've tried the ToonBoom demo and really didn't care for it myself. Over-priced if you ask me.

Another program called Tab looks cool but is very expensive

Moho is a nice 2D animation tool.

I myself prefer to stick with KoolMoves. What these 2D animation programs charge can be done in any flash program really. Only really lacking in a lip-sync function which can be done using actionscript or just by your own creativity.

Personally I have given up on KM only because there are certain tools that I have grown to love that KM just doesn't offer as mentioned earlier in my thread here. That being said,..
FlashPulse is right in that you can always deal with workarounds to get a task accomplished if you really look hard enough. I would never poo poo KM becuase it doesn't have this or that, but I just wouldn't buy it when I know there are other apps that have what I'm looking for. It's a personal preference thing. There is NO one magic bullet in 2D animation,..but there are enough differences in the programs that it constitutes trying them all to see where you feel like you can get some work done.

I think ToonBoom is fantastic, but quite honestly, I see more interaction in the KoolMoves community forum than I do in TBStudios. Toon Boom Studio may be where I end up because it does really seem seriously focused on 2D animation where Kool Moves seems more like a web type animation tool that just so happens to be able to animate a bit more with some serious limitations. There is a big price difference,...but still you have to look at how serious you are about your 2D animation project and where you see it going.

Right now I'm on my 2nd to last try out with software and I'm learning Flash MX, but let me assure you that it's a program not for the faint of heart! TBS will be my last tryout before I commit to one.

I'm not confident that Bob will add the features I'm looking for,..but at the same token,...I'm just one voice and I'm not so sure Bob really "needs" to add features that would not net him any returns. KoolMoves does what it does well and I've seen some cool stuff done with it. If it migrates into more of broadcast capable 2D animation tool then wonderful,..but if not,..I still wish it great success.

Understandable, KoolMoves is for the lite animator and for the web designer but don't run off to soon. There's only a few things that KM needs to be a pretty decent animation program.

1. Ability to set the movie rate at 29.97 fps. (I asked Bob about this and it probably could be done)

2. Exporting as AVI (shouldn't be hard but don't know if Bob will do this or not. If not there are programs out there that convert SWF to AVI)

3. Lip-Sync (I'm sure we could come up with something to make the process easier, like using actionscript set to play clips at certain times)

I've had an idea for a tool to do this.

Here's what I've been toying with.

Make a movie that loads a sound file. have preset 'sound' types, I'm using the ones I've seen in animation books on mouth shapes. Then as the sound progresses you press a key for each sound, We keep track of the mouth type (based on keypress) for that point in the sound (based on sound.position) then make a function that you give it the clip,sound,list of position-shape info and let it play back the sound.

Ideas?

What's bothering me after actually opening the demo and playing with it again last night (I'm really trying without much success to make this app work for me) is the funky magnifier tool. What's up with that? I couldn't find it in the toolbox anywhere and had to actually go up to the menu options at the top and access it by pulling it down and making the selection. Why not just have a magnifier tool shortcut in the toolbox that you just click on it and start magnifying? Right click and it demagnifies like the standard tool that so many utilize. It just seems too unspontaneous that it bogs me down. I LOVE to work at a high magnification to get the detail work done. To keep going in and out of that view without a simple tool is nuts. Please correct me if I'm missing something there.

You can set the zoom to a certain functionality with a click,..but if you stop and create a new shape,..you have to reset it again. Why? How could that be a benefit?

Also,..if you create a shape (using the freehand line tools or shape tool for that matter,...why can it not keep smooth joining points where the connecting lines are made? When you create a kidney shape and are working magnified,...you will see what I mean about the several breaking points even throughout the bends. That's just not going to cut it for me.

By playing with the demo,..I now remember that the thing that KM struggles with is any serious art tools. The line quality is just not there and there are some strange things going on with the everyday tools as well. I'm talking animation features here and not your basic web animated stuff which again KM handles just fine. I'm just looking at KM's own description that says it was designed by an animator for animators too. I think Bob tried to keep it simple first and if so then perhaps he will be releasing a PRO version down the road or adding some functionality to this one as it matures. For me,..the jury ios still out on this and I hope it can take that next step because Macromedia has had a monopoly way too long. They need to be shaken up a bit.

Quote:

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Originally posted by blanius
I've had an idea for a tool to do this.

Here's what I've been toying with.

Make a movie that loads a sound file. have preset 'sound' types, I'm using the ones I've seen in animation books on mouth shapes. Then as the sound progresses you press a key for each sound, We keep track of the mouth type (based on keypress) for that point in the sound (based on sound.position) then make a function that you give it the clip,sound,list of position-shape info and let it play back the sound.

Ideas?

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I've thought about writing a program that has basic mouth shapes and as the audio file plays you display a mouth shape to a frame. Each mouth shape having it's own name. Then you export an actionscript file based on these names and frames that could be loaded in KM.

I'll I need now is time and a little knowledge of actionscript for this and it shouldn't be too hard. I'll try to start on this soon and see what I can do.

Hi everyone,

Here's my attempt at lip synching with actionscript:
http://gingerich.freelinuxhost.com/LipSynch.swf

It was my first attempt with lip synching of any kind so it's not perfect, but it does show that lip synching with koolmoves is definitely possible.

I'm also interested in knowing how well this syncs on other computers, so let me know if it's way off.

Quote:

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Originally posted by PilferedPizzas
Hi everyone,

Here's my attempt at lip synching with actionscript:
http://gingerich.freelinuxhost.com/LipSynch.swf

It was my first attempt with lip synching of any kind so it's not perfect, but it does show that lip synching with koolmoves is definitely possible.

I'm also interested in knowing how well this syncs on other computers, so let me know if it's way off.

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Hmmm, I get redirected to 100webspace.com when clicking on your link.

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Originally posted by FLASHPULSE
Hmmm, I get redirected to 100webspace.com when clicking on your link.

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You could try
http://glebeci.ca/users/brutha/LipSynch.html

OR go to gingerich.freelinuxhost.com and click on the LipSynch.html link

If those both don't work, I'll just attach a zip file.

EDIT: it seems that the redirection problem was caused by me linking directly to the swf as opposed to an html page so
http://gingerich.freelinuxhost.com/LipSynch.html
should work.

I completely see animation as possible with Koolmoves. It just takes a little bit of work and effort. Though really not that much more work. And considering the cost different between Koolmoves and programs like Moho and Tab. The little bit of effort required is well worth it. I used Koolmoves awhile ago to create a music video for a techno band. Took the sequenced bitmaps from Koolmoves into my video editor, batch processed post-work into them and rendered them out along with the audio. Really you don't need avi output nor fps changes. Though adding them if simple enough would be nice. Sequenced bitmaps and a good video editor solve that problem.

I don't think its that Koolmoves can't do animation on a pro-level it just doesn't have the tools you think it needs to get your specific task done. I'm all for improvements, but don't say it can't do pro-work. I think a good way to get a simple form of lipsyncing into koolmoves is a set of clipart shapes of the specific phenomes, and then link them direct into koolmoves as a module of sorts. Then when a person is animating, just click and drag the shapes in at the desired frame, or have a replaced ment function of the one shape with the new shape at that specific frame. Then the user could go back through and tweak the actual color and shape to fit the character or use the shapes as guidelines.

Brian

Nice work PilferedPizzas! :D

OK,

Let me clarify as I guess I should here regarding my comments about "Pro- work". I guess if you mean by professional,..creating something that someone might give you a nickel for,..well,..yes,...then I apologize,..you are right it truly can do Pro work. Professional work would be anything that can generate money,..whether it be 1 dime or a penny or a million bucks.

But if you are referring to a high quality type of animation similar to what you might see on TV(yes,..I also understand that quality can be defined and varies from within the eye of the beholder) I still say it is obvious that KM lacks much needed tools to really be useful at that level.

I will not apologize for stating the obvious about a software program that claims to have high level animation tools that truthfully does not. I never said that KM couldn't do pro work for web design etc. as it has been proven that it can by some of you great web artists and your sites. It's a really great tool. And I also know that no software program can do the creative work for you,..as is evident by some garbage that comes out of the so called pro level apps as well. But when some key tools or features are missing in an application ,..it makes it very difficult to get some serious work done within any reasonable time frame, thus not really effective for pro level work.

Are there work arounds? You bet! I can use a rock to drive a nail in a board too,...but if a hammer is around and I'm facing a serious carpentry project,..I want the hammer. Thanks.