I'm Norwegian and I have nothing against Islam

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Muslims are in one of their weakest and worst period in this life, but not because they don't think like you (civilized people?), NO, it's just because they do not follow Allah guidance correctly (clarified by Quor'an and Prophet Muhammad).

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You don't think it could be because their following some radical mullah or one of their warlords or tribal leaders with his own agenda? You just take it for gospel that it couldn't be because none of them think for themselves on issues that matter in this world?

There's nothing wrong with wondering what's going to happen in the next world, if you believe that way, but your not in the next world yet. Sounds like your counting your lentils before they grow by blowing up this world to get a better seat in the next.

I meant, Muslims, as far as I know, weren't that weak ever, I guess.

Somebody here talked about brainwashing of "someones", well it seems that you "west" took a vary good brain SHOWER, the last 100 years.

What do you know about "Islamic History", try this.


I can't find proper words than Qur'an:

This will be long but may be it'll give you an idea


Al-Imran - 186 - 200


[186] Ye shall certainly be tried and tested in your possessions and in your personal selves; and ye shall certainly hear much that will grieve you, from those who received the Book before you and from those who worship many gods. But if ye persevere patiently, and guard against evil, then that will be a determining factor in all affairs.

[187] And remember Allah took a Covenant from the People of the Book, to make it known and clear to mankind, and not to hide it; but they threw it away behind their backs, and purchased with it some miserable gain! and vile was the bargain they made!

[188] Think not that those who exult in what they have brought about, and love to be praised for what they have not done think not that they can escape the Penalty. For them is a Penalty grievous indeed.

[189] To Allah belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth; and Allah hath power over all things.

[190] Behold! in the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the alternation of Night and Day, there are indeed Signs for men of understanding.

[191] Men who celebrate the praises of Allah, standing, sitting, and lying down on their sides, and contemplate the (wonders of) creation in the heavens and the earth, (with the thought): "Our Lord! not for naught hast thou created (all) this! Glory to Thee! Give us salvation from the Penalty of the Fire.

[192] "Our Lord! any whom Thou dost admit to the Fire, truly Thou coverest with shame, and never will wrong-doers find any helpers!

[193] "Our Lord! we have heard the call of one calling (us) to Faith, `Believe ye in the Lord', and we have believed. Our Lord! forgive us our sins, blot out from us our iniquities, and take to Thyself our souls in the company of the righteous.

[194] "Our Lord! Grant us what Thou didst promise unto us through Thy Messengers, and save us from shame on the Day of Judgment; for Thou never breakest Thy promise."

[195] And their Lord hath accepted of them, and answered them: "Never will I suffer to be lost the work of any of you, be he male or female: ye are members, one of another; those who have left their homes, and were driven out therefrom, and suffered harm in My Cause, and fought and were slain, verily, I will blot out from them their iniquities, and admit them into Gardens with rivers flowing beneath - a reward from the Presence of Allah - and from His Presence is the best of rewards."

[196] Let not the strutting about of the Unbelievers through the land deceive thee:

[197] Little is it for enjoyment: their ultimate abode is Hell; what an evil bed (to lie on)!

[198] On the other hand, for those who fear their Lord, are Gardens, with rivers flowing beneath; therein are they to dwell (for ever), a gift from the Presence of Allah, and that which is in the Presence of Allah is the best (bliss) for the righteous.

[199] And there are, certainly, among the People of the Book, those who believe in Allah, in the revelation to you, and in the revelation to them, bowing in humility to Allah: they will not sell the Signs of Allah for a miserable gain! for them is a reward with their Lord, and Allah is swift in account.

[200] O ye who believe! persevere in patience and constancy; vie in such perseverance; strengthen each other; and fear Allah; that ye may prosper.


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And : AlAhqaf - 20

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[20] And on the Day that the Unbelievers will be placed before the Fire, (it will be said to them): "Ye received your good things in the life of the world, and ye took your pleasure out of them: but to-day shall ye be recompensed with a Penalty of humiliation: for that ye were arrogant on earth without just cause, and that ye (ever) transgressed."

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Source: http://quran.al-islam.com


This life is a test either you succeed or fail.

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But wouldn't you say that the above quote about the "severe penalty" for not following the Qu'ran and Allah would lead to intolerance much akin to how the extremist Christians say "if you're not a Christian/Baptist/member of my church, then you're going to hell" type of statements that are oft reverberated in the media? (think Pat Robertson)

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I don't know the guy.

When you look to a religion (or anything) look at it as a whole, if you really want to know about it don't just "pick" what gives others who don't have any idea about it, a bad impression. That's exactly what YOUR media does.

Allah gave the "choice" of beleive to everybody, giving promise of eternal paradise or eternel hell.


Alkahf 29 - 31

[29] Say, "The Truth is from your Lord": Let him who will, believe, and let him who will, reject (it): for the wrong-doers We have prepared a Fire whose (smoke and flames), like the wall and roof of a tent, will hem them in: if they implore relief they will be granted water like melted brass, that will scald their faces: How dreadful the drink! how uncomfortable a couch to recline on!

[30] As to those who believe and work righteousness, verily We shall not suffer to perish the reward of any who do a (single) righteous deed.

[31] For them will be Gardens of Eternity; beneath them rivers will flow; they will be adorned therein with bracelets of gold, and they will wear green garments of fine silk and heavy brocade; they will recline therein on raised thrones. How good the recompense! How beautiful a couch to recline on!


Also Albaqarah 256 - 257


[256] Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects Evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things.

[257] Allah is the protector of those who have faith: from the depths of darkness He will lead them forth into light. Of those who reject faith the patrons are the Evil Ones: from light they will lead them forth into the depths of darkness. They will be Companions of the Fire, to dwell therein (forever).

Quoting the Qu'ran is a lot like quoting the Bible. It's all about person interpretation. That's the part about how in the Middle East you have some radical mullahs spouting out fatwah's and jihads.

In the rest of the world, you have some radical Christians spouting out evangelism and revivals... pretty much extreme - but not strap a bomb to yourself type of extreme.

My point... the quotes - thank you for them - they tend to lose their effect because of the poetic language it's written in to the western audience. What you bolded though, seems like it's a call to rid yourself of all western influence due to their ultimate conclusion, a nice free trip to Hell.

But the question I had earlier, still remains. How do you deal with somebody that doesn't believe in what you believe in? You answered, but how do you get Hamas and Israel to recognize each other?

How do you get the Sunni's and Shi'ites (sp?) to play along? How do you separate the fundamentalist from the orthodox? How do you get the protestants and the catholics? How do you get the baptists and the lutheran to play along?

It's quite amazing how the one thing that mentions God/Allah is the one thing that's splitting people down the middle - well that and a bit o' land.

It's all about who's going to belly up to a table and try to solve as oppose to bomb each other.

And biggest thing... why in the heck would the response would the burning of flags and such as opposed to something that's equal to an offensive cartoon?

I know of some cartoons out today that are racist, sexist, and totally offensive. All I did was write a letter stating the offense.

No burning effigies, no burning buildings/embassies/churches... just a letter stating my offense and I got a response and apology.

Is it that serious? Is what I did not pretty much an "equal response"?

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and vile was the bargain they made! For them is a Penalty grievous indeed. and Allah hath power over all things. and never will wrong-doers find any helpers! and from His Presence is the best of rewards. Let not the strutting about of the Unbelievers through the land deceive thee Little is it for enjoyment: their ultimate abode is Hell; what an evil bed (to lie on)! and fear Allah; that ye may prosper.

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Oh puleeese. Don't you see that for what it is? Grow up. Pull your head out of the sand and look around, cause none of that has ever happened. Or ever will. Man makes his own bed to lie in. Man is the culprit here, your fellow man is the one that you should fear. Your following the word of an old boogie man story to scare children. Get a life.

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What you bolded though, seems like it's a call to rid yourself of all western influence due to their ultimate conclusion, a nice free trip to Hell.

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If this was true I wouldn't be still talking to you right now.

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It's quite amazing how the one thing that mentions God/Allah is the one thing that's splitting people down the middle - well that and a bit o' land.

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For Muslims, I said the reason for being weak and separated.
And do not ignore the history, were everything was different, Muslims were up, Europe was down at sometime. So don't judge the present, forgetting the past. Civilizations go up and down through time.

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Is it that serious?

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More than you think.

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Is what I did not pretty much an "equal response"?

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If these were to bring the proper appologie, we would simply done it.
But no, you know why? because the "freedom of speech" should be above ANY limits.
Everyone else now or in the future would repeat it. Because he would know then, we, the Muslims are asleep, or just don't care or worse agree.

This should be taken VERY seriously.

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If these were to bring the proper appologie, we would simply done it.
But no, you know why? because the "freedom of speech" should be above ANY limits.
Everyone else now or in the future would repeat it. Because he would know then, we, the Muslims are asleep, or just don't care or worse agree.

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What is a "proper" apology?

And from who?

You think western governments should apologize for their free press?

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Because he would know then, we, the Muslims are asleep, or just don't care or worse agree.

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The truth is more like with 70% unemployment, you got nothing else to do but burn rags and other peoples buildings. Your not pissed at the west, your pissed at your own plight and don't dare say so out loud.

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Originally Posted by newhive

If this was true I wouldn't be still talking to you right now.

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Don't follow. I'm not in your native lands, despite spending plenty of time in Turkey and Egypt in the past, as well as Northern Africa - Algeria and Morocco mostly. So my statement was that your quote makes it seem like you want any westerners out of your lands. Not on the internet, which has no boundaries.

Now are we clear?

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For Muslims, I said the reason for being weak and separated.

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Due to Israel being situated where it's at? Or something else? This is still not clear to me.

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And do not ignore the history, were everything was different, Muslims were up, Europe was down at sometime. So don't judge the present, forgetting the past. Civilizations go up and down through time.

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My ancestry hails from Algeria. I'm about as far from European descent as you could ever get - at least 3/4ths of my family history that is. One part of my family tree lands in Europe, but society sees me as a black man - same color as Anwar Sadat actually.

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More than you think.

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And this is what leads to fanaticism. Almost like that part of the world can burn in effigy whomever they pick, the US has been called the "Great Satan" for near 30 years, my whole lifetime, and yet... we didn't burn Khomeini likelihoods nor burn any flags; despite it happening to anybody you could point to in the US that was the head of our country.

Again, it doesn't seem like a "equal response"... perhaps if we went and actually followed the letter of the Bible that would bring back Crusades and other conquests in the name of religious intolerance then we'd be talking in the same language?

There isn't any equality to the response from my point of view. All I see is a "it's very serious" but not a rational reason other than it pissed people off. But when it's done by other countries and the US is the target... "it's ok". How fair is that!?

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If these were to bring the proper appologie, we would simply done it.

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Before the riots, did anybody see the apology? After the riots, did anybody see the apology? Before the embassy being burned down in Damascus, did anybody see the apology? After the embassy was burned down in Damascus, did anybody see the apology?

Can you state that it wasn't proper enough based on what criteria?

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But no, you know why? because the "freedom of speech" should be above ANY limits.

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So... I have a right to start a yankee jihad and start bombing people because my freedom of speech and my fight against my oppressors should be heard by all?

That extreme freedom of speech goes both ways.

But as it stands on this subject, the cartoonist apologized, has made more than one statement, yet it's unresolved. If he drew himself in a similar situation, would it be enough of an apology? That's an equal thing. And yet, it would invariably not be enough.

What I see is an outright exploit on the principal of freedom of speech. A cartoon incites a riot, the cartoonist apologizes. Should have been the end of it. But it wasn't. Not by a long shot.

Yet, all of the editorial cartoons, television shows, and news propaganda/articles have yet to cease in muslim countries, but you want it to cease everywhere else. Lead by example perhaps? Or allow what you're claiming as "freedom of speech"... it goes both ways. Not just in the way that you wish to allow. And honestly, in this case, the apology wasn't sufficient based on whatever reasons given; however there doesn't seem to be any way to make this situation better/resolved.

What would make this situation go away?

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Everyone else now or in the future would repeat it. Because he would know then, we, the Muslims are asleep, or just don't care or worse agree.

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Doubtful. A cartoon got an embassy burned down to the ground. What would a t-shirt or any other commercial thing create? The consequences are insane. And there is no appeasing anybody. Islam rules this taboo. Christianity rules this taboo. Judaism... aw hell, I won't even go there.

Hell, it just seems like the entire world is just as guilty of the one thing that the US is constantly blamed for... trying to coerce the media and public responses to be what they think it should be... as they think it should be.

This was just a tasteless cartoon. Many apologies later, all I see is continued anger. What would solve this? I mean, seriously.

Newhive:

Muslims should understand that many people do NOT share the same convictions as you, they DON'T believe that your prophet was THE last messenger and that they DON'T believe or accept your Quran, just the same as there are many people who DON'T believe or accept the Bible.

If some one insulted my religion or Prophet ( in my case it would be Jesus ) I have the right to be insulted, and the right to demonstrate, but NOT the right to kill, Muslims cannot and should not try and impose those teachings THEY hold in the Quran on others who DON'T follow Islam, especially in non Islamic Countries.

Untill you people come around to this way of thinking, and let God ( Allah) do the punishing in the afterlife ect, *( AND NOT TAKE IT UPON THEMSELVES TO BE GODS EXECUTIONER )* then there will be no way forward in relations.

Any way you would think that there were more important things to fix in the lives of Muslims and their countries than to exert all that energy of hatred on a cartoon.........fair dinkum mate, the behaviour of torching buildings and the rage is just incoprehendible........and stupid over a flippin cartoon image.

Would the rage be the same if the cartoon image was with Muhammad holding a Sword? I suspect not...go figure.

Any one who takes offence so easily is just plain stupid and childish in my view...God can look after those who Blaspehme against him....remember he created everything and is all powerful.

iTony

Newhive, allow me to also thank you for discussing calmly everything from your point of view.

It is very adult, and very much welcome. Thank you.

Id also like to thank newhive for his input here so far. Its definitely interesting.

Ill add that I think your initial post in this thread set up a premise based on a very simplistic idea about "the west". You said that we have nothing to live for beyond this life and are only about worldly things. That is definitely not true. There are many, many people of all kinds of faith throughout the west. Even a person who doesn't believe in a traditional religion can have their own faith and spirituality. The difference is that we believe each person should have the right to choose what they are going to live for after this life or to not live that way if they choose. Just because its not state sponsored doesnt mean its not happening.

Thank you.

The appology as I see it is (after the government and the newspaper appology) is to punish the newspaper or even close it, or even better putting a law that prevents it to happen in the future.

I know this may seem odd to you, but not impossible to me. Not because we Muslims are the Untouchables of this universe, no, just as I said because it's is extreamly offensive to our beleives, just as closing a newspaper in a "free" country, or yet more. Also it's a "precedent", and we want it to not to be repeated, ever.

I do not represent any country or government, just my opinion.

One thing to make clear here, I didn't ever said anything about bombings, or terrorism. My opinion is to begin by a large Islamic boycott to Denmark AND who ever publishes these cartoons, along with political pressure, till we get that appology (hopefully a law).

My defence is not targeted againest US, (only in this issue), just againest the non-limit freedom of speech.

Does requesting (and insisting) a mutual respect of beleives considered another way of "non limit freedom of speech" ?

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God can look after those who Blaspehme against him....remember he created everything and is all powerful.

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Then what would be the meaning of life if "God" just does everything, why all this pain, hate, wars?

We should at least "try" to fix bad things in this life, as much as we can.

As I said, I (and Muslims) beleive this life is a test, either you succeed or fail. Allah left us the freedom of choice to live and act in this life with kind guidance like (Tawrah, Engeel(bible), and Qur'an). But didn't left us to do everything either. Somethings Allah himself handles even if that takes time.

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Originally Posted by gerbick

I'm just reiterating popular propaganda and reasons why the creation of Israel in 1948 is a problem in 2006.

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I hear ya'

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The difference is that we believe each person should have the right to choose what they are going to live for after this life or to not live that way if they choose. Just because its not state sponsored doesnt mean its not happening.

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Agree, but I think you should add "with a respect to each others guarenteed". For everybody.

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Originally Posted by newhive

And adixx..
I'm not in the mood of loughing.

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so don't, but go ahead and explain what country in that entire region gives it's citizens (citizen from Israeli/Arab/American/European descent) a complete set of freedoms excercised in all western countries. Men & Women... Where? I'm talking about freedom of religious expression... freedom of speech...etc.

http://www.waterstonecoasters.com/im...ational/12.jpg

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Originally Posted by el-Ignoramus

Only you guys want Freedom to be a one way lane, with said freedom comes responsibility, something those caricature artist never heard of obviously, and an attempt to deface one of the largest religions on earth just to get your five minutes of fame, well I wish them luck dealing with the consequences, after all, we're only practicing our freedom as well

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I really expected better from you man.

Having freedom of speech, or any personal freedom at all means taking the good with the bad. Hence we still have idiots like the klan running around in the States.

Just as the cartoon falls under freedom of expression and is being criticized, so is the reaction to it.

I can't say threatening violence should be protected or deemed reasonable in a case like this. I don't undertand what that kind of threat is supposed to accomplish. It doesn't foster respect, understanding or reconciliation. It seems designed only to create more suffering.

There are also instances where freedom of speech is afforded to muslims that not everyone is ok with but they are still protected. Anyone else catch that episode of "30 days" where the christian has to live as a muslim for 30 days to see what its like? The muslim community had set up a tower that broadcasted some kind of prayer several times a day that was so loud you could hear it throughout the entire neighborhood. Many people didnt appreciate this for obvious reasons, but they didnt go burning down town hall or anything.

What you are referring to is Muslim "Athan" which is calling for prayer, and is held 5 times a day each day, and contains no insult for anybody in anyway, it's not even targeted to non-Muslim, it's a call for prayer to inform Muslims that prayer time is on.

It's very normal in the Arab countries, for both Muslims, Christians and Jews.

I don't have to mention that we Muslims here, are very ok with ringing Church's bells More than 5 times a day, that is happening.

I may agree with you just for voices being too loud to harm the neighboors sometimes, and this is something even some Muslims complain about.