Do animals deserve rights? Thats not the point!

Now, I know this has been debated widely for many years, too many in fact... but I think we should stop asking the normal straight-forward question:

Do animals deserve rights?

OK read this next part very carefully...

The question should rather be what moral teachings do animals provide us? Now, I'm one of those animal lovers, and I've read tons of books on animal rights, and they all miss one very important point: The PURPOSE of animals being here! They circle endlessly on the heated protest of animals in medical research (which I for one object to...), but they totally miss the point! Another stressed division is that many people think animals are here for mainly two different reasons:

1) We are supreme beings above all animals and we have the right to use them any way we want to.

2) Animals are our life companions... they should be given equal respect for they have a right inhabit the earth as much as we do...

Now, it does state in the Book of Genesis that God created humans to live as superior beings over animals... but think of it this way:

We have the ability to preserve or destroy... and we have superior power over animals, BUT its how we EXCERSISE that power that matters....

So why are they really here? I believe animals are here to be our life-long companions... but to also teach us how to live in harmony with one another..
its one of the things we as people and superior beings need to excersise, love, and control of our power...

Your probably thinking I'm crazy by now.... thinking of how we can live in harmony with animals like bears... but thats a different part of this discussion... God created animals with instinct... and we need to observe and learn how to deal with that and live with it! (Properly, if you know what I mean.)

NOW, THE REAL QUESTION:

"What do you think animals are here on Earth for?"

Animals are here for other animals to eat.

To quote the gospel of Leary:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dennis Leary

Because not eating meat is a decision. Eating meat is an instinct! Yeah! And I know what it's about.

"I don't want to eat the meat because I love the animals. I love the animals."

Hey, I love the animals too. I love my doggy. He's so cute. My fluffy little dog.. He's so cute. There's the problem. We only want to save the cute animals, don't we? Yeah. Why don't we just have animal auditions. Line 'em up one by one and interview them individually.

"What are you?"

"I'm an otter."

"And what do you do?"

"I swim around on my back and do cute little human things with my hands."

"You're free to go."

"And what are you?"

"I'm a cow."

"Get in the ******* truck, ok pal!"

"But I'm an animal."

"You're a baseball glove! Get on that truck!"

"I'm an animal, I have rights!"

"Yeah, here's yer ******* cousin, get on the ******* truck, pal!"

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Amen.

Good one PAlexC! :) I agree, it seems most people want to save the "cute" animals, whatever they define as cute :D.

Animal Lover side of my brain says: "Not Impressed by the critique between cow and otter!"

:)

A good, logical way to explain the life animals in the manufacturing business... but someone might get the wrong end of the bullet if you know what I mean....

Whatever, some cultures eat dogs. You go with the food supply you're dealt. Don't overthink it.

OK, I know what you mean.... :)

Personally, I think its a sick idea that people eat dogs! UGH! :crazy:

And then there are those restaurants who secretly sneak cat or dog meat into their supposed beef or chicken dishes... although I don't think they do that anymore.... thank goodness!

Lee Young wherever you may be...


You eat dogs in your country....


But it could we worse...


You could be Scouse...


Eating rats in your council house.



















sorry seemed relevant :)

I'm from the first school of thought primarily, that we are superior to other animals on the planet. We choose to eat the ones that nourish us, and cuddle with the ones that are good companions, and make stuff out of ones with good parts. Not saying that we're doing a perfect job of all that, but I think as long as we don't wipe anymore species out we're alright.

Dennis Leary makes good points though. Knows his stuff.

No, thats alright... it is sort of relevant...

But MAN, that creates a disgusting mental picture in my head...

*Runs to the nearest washroom...*

Thats a good point sk8Krog ... although... it seems that we're taking more than we need? Ye'know what I'm saying?

Greed has plauged us for many many many many years... and we've done nothing but nourish that in way too :D

But hey, I'm not saying everyone! I'm not a person to judge...

Well the only animals that deserve rights are the ones that you can't eat obviously, but the list seems to be getting smaller and smaller just give us enough time to sample all the meat out there. I mean we already eat everything from eel to frogs and scorpions to freakin cats and dogs. As long as rich people have the need for delicacies (sp?) the list of those cute animals will be getting shorter and shorter. But by all means, lets save all the stinky rodents that do nothing but eat sleep and roll around in their own **** for childrens entertainment !

Another thing to consider about animal conservation is that it helps control the food chain. (implied by Scudsucker's comment).

And I see what you mean noiselab... people need to sort out their logic a little bit... even keeping snakes as pets that do nothing but hiss, sleep, and nearly choke you to death is not appealing at all either.....

And for the most part on eating animals... the only ones I currently know of that are not eaten are foxes and spiny creatures like the hedgehog... (but then again I may be wrong eh? :D)

why do animals need to have a purpose assigned to them in the first place? what if life is as Nietszche stated, a "will to power".

most capable animals wouldn't hesitate to eat you if they needed food. strangely, those are the animals that are eaten by humans the least!

anyway, there really isnt any logical way around the arbitrariness and irony of our choices on how to treat animals. but, since when did logic dictate human behavior en mass?

OK, my bad on that one.. wrong choice of words :D

And, consider this Indivision: Why were they even created in the first place? Without purpose, there is no reason to even be there.... it can't just be an accident... can it? And by the way.. what do you mean by "Will to Power?"

I live in the country and see remarkable differences between citypeople and people over here.

The people over here know they grow animals for milk, food, etc. They keep a dog for helping guarding their property and a cat to catch the mouses. They treat them good because they are responsible for their animals. They respect the wild animals because they don't have a reason to kill them or to treat them bad. But: animals are animals and their life will end once. The one they keep for food will be eaten then. Over here we eat the cows and pigs, in Thailand they eat the chicken and the dog (tasted good btw).

People in the city think animals should be cuddled, given years of second life after they end milk production, pay a lot of money to make the dog live a year longer. These are the people who don't want to recognise an animal at the butcher; they just want to see reddish pieces of something they can eat. When they grow up they see animals mostly talking on cartoon channel or in the zoo and learn that animals are half human. These people are (in NL) the ones who are mostly talking about animal rights.

Animals don't deserve rights. They don't know what 'a right' is and they don't do anything to deserve rights. If they did, someone would have to judge which one deserve its right and which one doesn't. We would have to discuss wether the mosquito have rights or not. We would have to lock them up in distance and hidden prisons. No big problem because no animal will stand up for it rights.

Human beings have rights because they know about rights. People judge people by their behaviour, skincolor or shoesize and some lose their rights because they don't fit in. The 'losers' will protest or if they can't, hopefully some others will stand up for their rights.
Besides rights, human beings have responsibilities, too. If someone doesn't take his responsibilities towards animals, we should judge this person on that, not try to humanise the animal and write down their rights.

"What do you think animals are here on Earth for?"
because they are.
not being facetious but i dont really think they are here for any particular reason.
as to animal rights i believe that all creatures should a right to a pain free death (the ones we exercise contol over anyway).
blah blah etc

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SpockBert

Lee Young wherever you may be...


You eat dogs in your country....


But it could we worse...


You could be Scouse...


Eating rats in your council house.



















sorry seemed relevant :)

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In your liverpool slums... in your liverpool slums! You scrounge round your dustbins for something to eat... in your liverpool slums! :D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cemrin

OK, my bad on that one.. wrong choice of words :D

And, consider this Indivision: Why were they even created in the first place? Without purpose, there is no reason to even be there.... it can't just be an accident... can it? And by the way.. what do you mean by "Will to Power?"

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isnt it kind of simplistic to assume that they were just "created"? i mean, they evolved. even from a religious perspective, most religions at least acknowledge intelligent design. in other words, that living beings evolve procedurally but God determines how they do so.

so, the answer as to why they are in the form they are in now might just be due to them developing characteristics that enable them to reproduce more. thats all. not because they serve some vain purpose to remind us of how we should be more kind. next chance you get, catch a frog and look him/her in the face and ponder the fact that the only thing that prevents it from devouring you on the spot is your size.

we eat and use animals for our purposes because we can and we developed the capability to do so first. dont believe for a second that they wouldnt do the same if the roles were reversed. ive seen the way the neighbor cat looks at me!

"Will to Power" refers to a theory by the philosopher, Nietzsche. Its somewhat complex and actually open to interperetation. But, generally its the idea that life exists due to a sort of force of nature, like gravity, the will to power. the innate desire to be in control of your destiny and others if you choose. its apparent in plants as they twist their bodies toward sun-light to become larger and consume more. in people, its articulated in actions and language. basically, its a more philosophical version of Darwinism. though, the context he uses the idea is not so much in why bears eat other animals but why weak people find ways to change the rules of society to protect themselves from stronger people.

On the subject of nations which eat domestic pets, I heard a story which will make you smile.

A friend of a friend went out one night with a mate for a few beers, got a little drunk and as they were walking home found a dead cat in the road which had been run over. So for a laugh they picked up the cat and went to the nearest chinese takeaway, which happened to be packed at the time. One of them chucked the dead cat on the counter and shouted at the takeaway owner on the other side "Right, this is the last one you're getting until you pay your bill!" then walked back out the shop. Needless to say the takeaway emptied pretty quickly, and they both got caught half a mile away down the road by two policemen accompanied by one rather annoyed takeaway owner.

i wonder is the dinosaures ever stopped and thought.. im really hungry... but those herbivores over there have rights.. aww screw it RAWRRRRRR *stom stomp stomp* *scream* RAWR!!!!!!!!! munch munch

animals dont have rights. once animals evolve to the point where they can hire their own lawyers and speak broken english, they dont have anything except meat i wanna eat and skin i wanna wear as a jacket.

Gimme a nice piece of Veal topped with a seared slice of fois gras.....

http://www.joe-ks.com/archives_jul20...sCreatures.jpg

no animal has rights, not even humans. we are all just bags of molecules, whirling around in loosely formed structures. everything is fair game, and all forces meet to form an outcome. some will abuse others, some will protect others. some will eat, and some will be eaten. all these things change the course, and none of them are right or wrong...they just ARE.

animals are not here for anything, other than to be factor in what comes next.

I understand that animals have the instinct to eat eachother and they have unique instincts to their species, but I never said they should deserve rights, never. I only mentioned it as the question that explains "Thats not the point!".

And I must admit, very well said Indivision... although... I don't believe in evolution or any kind of creation theory because number one, Human evolution can never be proved because they never found the missing link (They only made hoaxes for years, Lucy, and Java Man), and I also don't believe in any other form of evolution much because in the Bible it states again in Genesis:

"...And God saw that it was very good."

This means that there was no room needed for improvement, speaking in the fact of evolution... it was all that it needed to be.

And somehow Idivision, I don't believe that "Will to Power" theory at all... it does not make any logical sense, and there's the fact that its open interpretation... there's no real true version of it...

cermin just so you know, i hate you, and if you ever have a pet, and i find it im going to eat it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cemrin

And I must admit, (...) I don't believe in evolution or any kind of creation theory because number one, Human evolution can never be proved because they never found the missing link (They only made hoaxes for years, Lucy, and Java Man)

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Hmmm ... we are not yet on the end of times so it could be found. Besides, your rgument sounds quite easy to me. It is just as easy to say a religion is a hoax which lasts centuries. My conclusion: I don't vote for your proof.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cemrin

(...) and I also don't believe in any other form of evolution much because in the Bible it states again in Genesis: "...And God saw that it was very good." This means that there was no room needed for improvement, speaking in the fact of evolution... it was all that it needed to be.

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You have the right to believe what is written in the Bible. I have the right not to believe this. In my opinion there is a lot of proof that living creatures are developing (evolution) during time.

Can you name one example at least?

Well ... I have to think hard. In the old world this discussion is not as persistent as in the new world. I try to remember a few things and come up with:

On some Japanese islands there are monkeys who learned to throw seeds in the water amd then take out the cleaned, dustfree seeds.
I should have to search but some isolated birds, left on islands a few hundred years ago, have developed themselves to a littlebit different specie.
The average Dutchman is lots taller then a few hundred years ago. Especially the last decades there has been a enormous growth.
Some people are insensitive for this aids virus and investigation shows it is probably a left-over of the big diseases we had here in Europe during the middle ages, some people deveoped resistance.
Insects develop quickly: DDT killed them all when people started to use it, nowadays more insects are resistent.
The same goes for bacils and penicilline.

Well ... these are only things about nano evolution but then ... I believe in it more then in ancient words of wisdom ... One day mankind had to admit the earth is round, not flat.

Indeed, this is very minimal evolution.... but this is evolution through experience, not any major evolution from the start (In better words, the Beginning), or any point in between for that matter from any other genetic or some other kind of improvement.)

To SilverX2 ~

Why do you hate me? Just wondering...

I'm sure if you grow old enough (let assume some millions of years) you will see the macro results of evolution.
Which means: chew your bread well, drink your milk, consume lots of vegetables and don't eat loads of meat.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by silverx2

cermin just so you know, i hate you, and if you ever have a pet, and i find it im going to eat it.

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Hahahaha...

Cermin... its so boring and old discussing religion and politics on the internet... I suggest you go to some kind of god website to do stuff like that... We don't do things like that here in the coffee lounge :)

OK, I got ya on the "God" part, but hey, I don't see how discussing politics here in the CL is boring and old. since you guys talk about it all the time!

One thread about US Politics generally, and another one about Bush.... and yet yesterday I found another one..

I know what you mean, at least on the "religious" part of it, but I don't see why its a problem with political discussions here in the CL... I found lots of threads and posts on it...

i dislike you greatly, theres so many people in the world trying to change the way things are.

hippies, always talking about saving the earth, but are to lazy from smoking weed to doing anything.

im so sick of people *****ing and crying about animals. boohoo that animal had to die for you to eat it.. yeah well it was gonna die anyways. or its born and raised to be slaughted.. good i see no better way to get fresh meat then to grow it specificly for eating. im not gonna goto a slaughter house looking for a pet cow.

and those stupid people that complain about fur.... i bet those ****ers are not even organ donors.

if your going to give rights to dumb people might as well give rights to some animals. Not only do i believe that some animals are smarter than some people.... I think some animals serve a far greater role to society than some people.

I hate chickens.

Number one, SilverX, is that I don't really mind the slaughtering of animals... because thats what we depend on, I'm ok with that.... And I am not trying to change anyone.... this whole thread was put for the sake of opinion-sharing, not to start a war....

And you don't have to go overboard with it secondly! There are hundreds maybe thousands of animal activists and world activists who ARE NOT hippies...

And those people who cry about fur-traders, I bet some of them are organ donors... not everyone is the same... and not everyone does what you think they do...
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Alright, since we're getting on hot grounds here, I am requesting a thread closure... this thread is going to get nothing but nastier....

Once again, the whole reason I put up this thread is for people to openly share their opinions... not to jump at each other's throats...

Thanks, now I'm hungry...

* Goes off to make HUGE sangwich with lots of roast beef. *

you want opinions? start a thread about something relevent and funny, like who was the best clown ever.

Alright, Thanks....

I'm starting to think now that this was a little too serious to post... but hey, I just wanted to see what you guys think... thats all... thats the purpose of all my discussion topics here in the CL.

so you are using me for research?

people just need to stop worry about where there food is coming from and wory more about people in third world contries who dont have food at all.

more 'rights' = more lawyers = more baseless abstraction = coming of the apocalypse