Fact About Islam

Hello ghaniz, at this juncture the most we can hope for is to agree to disagree.
I cannot give respect to Muhammad, but I will try my best not to be offending.
Seeing as I am not Muslim though, I will continue to speak as I would speak about any religious figure. I refuse to skirt around issues and to use verbiage as if I am walking on egg shells. I believe I understand how you feel about your prophet and you must abide by your religious doctrine, but I am not bound by that way of thinking and actions.

I would hope you would also respect the fact that I am an intelligent person, and that everything that I have referred to in my posts have come directly from the Islamic community, Islamic friends, and theologists.
Thanks for understanding.

3P

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My main Purpose is Clear the missunderstandings not preaching I hope it will be clear and willbe the cause of decrease the critic on islam.

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With all due respect, you've been preaching since you initiated the thread. It's just progressed from placing links to articles (like post#1) with good faith to all who might visit, to it's current form where you simply will place masses of unquoted texts and force feed it. All of you should have the right to believe as you wish but lets do recognize preaching when we see it :)

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Originally Posted by ghaniz786

In Western society, it is common for a man to have mistresses and/or multiple extra-marital affairs...

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Stop right there. First off, that's not just men in Western society, that's people everywhere. They make mistakes, have indescretions.

Second, making polygamy acceptable on those grounds is rediculous. That's bending morality to human nature. Yes, no one is perfect. But you can't change the rules to suit your shortcomings. Man-made bends to the law don't make the act itself any better, it's just rationalizing.

i would really like to hear from a female muslim's perspective on this subject. Most of the 'holy books' are written by men anyway.

also i would like to ask if you are married to a muslim do you have to convert to a muslim as well? I personally disagree with it, in any religion.

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Originally Posted by Planet

I just woke up and already I dont like this thread.

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I still don't.

dp

ok. fine. the original reason for this thread has been done... I know something new about Islam.

Now. why shouldn't I close this lightning rod of a thread/topic?

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Originally Posted by gerbick

ok. fine. the original reason for this thread has been done... I know something new about Islam.

Now. why shouldn't I close this lightning rod of a thread/topic?

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Because everybody is calm :angel:

Do you want to say you don't like a discussion about religion, :faded: ? Do you want to become like Bush ( :zombie: ) and restrict people's right to say their opinion ( :mrpimp: )? Isn't this forum in America, the free country (challenge, challenge :devil: )?

Why are you so keen to close this? Usually you don't suggest that. :D

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Originally Posted by cancerinform

Because everybody is calm :angel:

Do you want to say you don't like a discussion about religion, :faded: ? Do you want to become like Bush ( :zombie: ) and restrict people's right to say their opinion ( :mrpimp: )? Isn't this forum in America, the free country (challenge, challenge :devil: )?

Why are you so keen to close this? Usually you don't suggest that. :D

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I'm keen to close this because it's a lightning rod just waiting on some spark to blow up.

It has nothing to do with restricted speech nor being like anybody I'd rather not be compared to. Perhaps I'd compare you to some of your pertinent historical references that'd make you cringe as well perhaps?

I don't know about you; however these types of conversations despite people trying to maintain the calm still invariably downward spiral into yell-fests the likes you've yet to witness.

So...while it's calm; why not close it?

But since you don't see a reason why and want to jump the gun and see it totally from a different perspective than anything I ever could have meant for it to have meant... it stays open.

If it stays calm; consider yourself lucky. If it doesn't... consider this thread to end up like so many before it.

And freedom of speech; it's been championed by me so many times in the past, I find it hilarious that you're stating otherwise. Do more research before you address me with such nonsense in the future... mmkay?

Bis dann.

Ghaniz - my friend i beg to differ with you !

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The Qur’an is the only religious book, on the face of this earth, that contains the phrase ‘marry only one’.

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- OK fine that's in paper - but what happens actually ? People take up multiple wives. Look at the Arabs for example - they marry numerous times - sometimes losing a count of how many wives they have - should'nt they be banned or something - No they cant - because your so called Mullah's themselves are romping to glory - having multiple wives.

Same goes with wearing the veil - its the uneducated mullahs who force the females to wear the veil and declare fatwas which you educated pumpkins cant stand up against. Utter disgraceful for a woman - c'mon stand up for your women - ask your females to wear what is appropiate for the occasion - be it a salwaar kameez or saree or dress - anything decent.

Triple talaaq is utter humilation for a woman. Just imagine a husband comes home and says talaq-talaq-talaq and your marriage is annulled. Utter stupidity !

Islam may have made all these rules in those days according to those prevailing times -but please dont follow them now - CHANGE WITH THE TIMES.

Like having multiple wives - because of war there was shortage of men, so taking up multiple wives was the right decision.

Wearing the veil may have suited the Arabian climate.

Some rules in Islam are very good - even scientifically -

For eg- Eating Halaal meat - Yes thats very hygenic because the blood which carries the impurities has been drained out in Halaal cut.

and Fasting for 30 days -
It clears all the toxic waste from your body - especially in these modern times when we eat so much junk food.

Ghaniz - We all here at Flashkit are very much open and agree that Islam is a good religion (as you have pointed out in your links with explanations) - but the fault lies with the followers of the faith who twist the words in the book to intepret it in thier own uneducated ways and give such a bad name to Islam !

Lets fight these so called twisted fundamentalists who tarnish the name of the religion and lead into a new modern era !

Cheers !

Koolbabs... I agree with every single word you said. Thanks for saying it in a manner I probably never could have.

I agree with Gerbs. Well done. I'ts nice to see an informative post that champions change and gives some sold reasons why change is needed.
I also would like to hear from some Islamic women on these matters though.

3P

so basically you're confusing religion with culture

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1. In the past women were degraded and used as objects of lust
The following examples from history amply illustrate the fact that the status of
women in earlier civilizations was very low to the extent that they were denied
basic human dignity:
a. Babylonian Civilization:
The women were degraded and were denied all rights under the Babylonian
law. If a man murdered a woman, instead of him being punished, his wife
was put to death.

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Isn't this what's happening in muslim countries where Sharia is practised? E.g. Nigeria. If a woman is raped, she is sentenced to death! (and some brutal ways of carrying out the death penalty too)

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Originally Posted by swampy

so basically you're confusing religion with culture

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one usually drives the other. or at least religion tends to seep into societal structure like a leaky sewage pipe.

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Originally Posted by koolbabs2000

- OK fine that's in paper - but what happens actually ? People take up multiple wives. Look at the Arabs for example - they marry numerous times - sometimes losing a count of how many wives they have - should'nt they be banned or something - No they cant - because your so called Mullah's themselves are romping to glory - having multiple wives.


Like having multiple wives - because of war there was shortage of men, so taking up multiple wives was the right decision.

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In Islam, a man is allowed to marry four wives. IF and only if, he can support all the four and treat them equally, and if his wives have no objection to it.

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Originally Posted by koolbabs2000

Same goes with wearing the veil - its the uneducated mullahs who force the females to wear the veil and declare fatwas which you educated pumpkins cant stand up against. Utter disgraceful for a woman - c'mon stand up for your women - ask your females to wear what is appropiate for the occasion - be it a salwaar kameez or saree or dress - anything decent.

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A women can dress in whatever she feels like as long as it is covering her body and head. Again, i would like to copy/paste things here as i cannot explain things in as much detail as the scholars can.. so please bare with this..

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# Muslim women wear hijab—which is more than just a head cover—because God ordered them to do so in two places in the Qur’an, and because Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) also ordered it. The Qur’an says in Surah 24, verses 30 - 31 what means:

*{Tell the believing men to lower their gaze and be modest. That is purer for them. Lo! Allah is Aware of what they do. And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and be modest, and to display of their adornment only that which is apparent, and to draw their veils over their bosoms, and not to reveal their adornment save to their own husbands or fathers or husbands fathers, or their sons or their husbands' sons, or their brothers or their brothers' sons or sisters sons, or their women, or their slaves, or male attendants who lack vigor, or children who know naught of women's nakedness. And let them not stamp their feet so as to reveal what they hide of their adornment. And turn unto Allah together, O believers, in order that ye may succeed.}*

These verses tell us that our Islamic dress is not just a matter of covering the head alone, but also of covering the bosom, which is attractive to men, and of lowering the gaze and walking in a way that does not attract attention. Note that the order to lower the gaze was addressed first to men…

You can also read the other verse about the same point, which is verse number 59 in Surah 33. It may be translated:

*{O Prophet! Tell thy wives and thy daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks close round them [when they go abroad]. That will be better, that so they may be recognized and not annoyed. Allah is ever Forgiving, Merciful.}*

This indicates that one of the reasons for hijab is to distinguish the believing woman from the non-believing. This relates to your second question concerning the logic behind hijab.

# Ask yourself, or ask the next person who asks you that question, if a female judge walked into the courtroom wearing a tight miniskirt and low-cut blouse, would you take her seriously? Who would you respect more, a woman dressed like that or one dressed modestly? The Qur’an was revealed for all times, and though circumstances change, human nature does not. The fact is that men do like to look at women’s bodies, so a woman who covers herself is more likely to be respected as a person than looked upon as a piece of meat!

Up until the end of the nineteenth century, a Western woman who had any self respect covered her head—though perhaps not all her hair—in public. Your audience may argue that a woman who does not cover her hair is no longer looked upon as a loose woman. That may be true, but women still know that men look at them. Otherwise, why would they spend millions of dollars every year to style, color, and treat their hair?

# It is true that men don’t have to cover their heads, but there is a dress code for them, as well, although it is not so widely publicized as the women’s dress code. Men must at least be covered from the navel to the knees with loose fitting clothing. The rules for men are different because women are less likely to ogle men than the other way around.

# Do women feel hot in hijab? To be honest, sometimes, yes, so smart women wear cotton. But overall, loose dresses are much cooler and healthier than pants [trousers] or pantyhose.

# Some women cover their faces either because they think it is required of them - only a minority of scholars say so - or because they think it is better for them to protect their modesty. Others do not think it is required, but they prefer to act as the wives of Prophet Muhammad did, for they take them as a model in their every day life. Those, believe that such act is a fadl, which would earn them more heavenly reward.

# Does a head cover prevent a woman from practicing her daily activities? I don’t see how it could! A woman does not normally wear hijab in her own house, so it shouldn’t get in the way when she’s doing housework. If a long head covering would get in the way in her work or pose a danger to her—if the woman were working around machinery or in a laboratory, for example—she can wear a different style that doesn’t have dragging ends. Actually, hijab—perhaps loose trousers and a long shirt if her work requires her to bend, lift, or climb steps or ladders—gives a woman more freedom of movement while protecting her modesty than does a short dress.

# Is hijab an oppression? Quite the contrary. Dr. Fatima Naseef, author of Women in Islam, sees hijab as a woman’s right to maintain her modesty and to be respected as a person. Please turn the question around to the asker: if one woman has the right to go half naked in public, why doesn’t another woman have the right to cover herself in public? Why is it looked upon as an oppression if she chooses to be modest?
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Originally Posted by koolbabs2000

Triple talaaq is utter humilation for a woman. Just imagine a husband comes home and says talaq-talaq-talaq and your marriage is annulled. Utter stupidity !

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I agree with you, the triple talaaq is actually taken in wrong context by a lot of muslims too. but even though it is not the way you think it is..

can you still provide me stats which show more divorce cases in muslim countries than in the west?

below is the actual ruling for talaq

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The clear instruction in the Koran is as follows: At-talaaqu marrataan: fa-imsaakum-bima`-ruufin `aw tasriihum-bi-ihsaan. Wa la yahillu lakum `an-ta`khuzuu mimmaa`aatay-tumuuhunna shay-`an `illaaa. Surah Al Baqr, 226. This means that talaq must be pronounced twice (in two months) and then (a woman) must either be retained in honour or released in kindness. Further it says, it is not lawful for you that you take from women anything which you have given them.

The commandment is clear. Talaq has to be pronounced twice with an intervening period in which to rethink, reconsider and reconcile. For this, the important instruction is to take time, and, once again, take more time, during which period there should be interlocutors from both sides to try to mediate the conflict. After the second talaq, there is still an intervening period, during which the husband has to think about the two choices available to him; either reconcile with his wife in an honourable way, or pronounce the third (irrevocable) talaq with kindness and allow her to go. At the end of the third interval, he must exercise this choice. But then follows the absolute command. If he decides to let her go, he must do so `without taking from the woman anything you have given her'. The spirit of the Koran vis-a-vis the process of divorce and the divorced woman, as reflected in this command to the man, is imbued with sensitivity towards gender.

The same command is repeated in Section 241 of the same Surah as a reminder to Muslims that in matters of talaq (as in other matters) women must be treated with utmost kindness.

Wa lil-mutallaqati mataa-um bil maruf. Haqqan `alal muttaqiin. (And remember for women who have been divorced, they should treated with ihsaan and suluk (kindness and grace). For all pious men this is the duty). The Koran is replete with passages for proper and egalitarian treatment of women. Muslims are commanded never to create impediments if a divorced woman wishes to contract another marriage. If a Muslim wants to exchange one wife for another he is commanded not to take anything from her, even if he has given her a quintaar, meaning, pile of gold (Surah Nisa, Section 20). In the same Surah, Muslims are commanded to give the wife's mehr with good grace at the time of marriage itself, unless she decides to defer it of her own free will.

Talaq is permissible in the Koran only on condition that there is a complete breakdown of marriage. Parting of ways must be graceful, and utmost care is taken to inflict no suffering on the woman. The common practice of impulsively uttering talaq thrice in a go, or writing talaq thrice on a postcard, or hiring a qazi to affix his signature on a scrap of paper, is totally anti-Islamic. No cleric, regardless from which school of Fiqah, can ever condone this form of talaq.

Just as the man is permitted talaq, so also is the woman permitted to take khula. In this matter as in all others, women and men have equal rights in Islam. In Surah Al Baqr (Section 228), there are five words which according to Maulana Abul Kalam Azad's explication of the Koran, altered the status of women for all time to come. The words are: Wa la hunna mislullazi alayhinna bil ma`ruuf. This means that (in matters of husn-e-suluk `beauteous treatment') women have the same rights over men as men have over women. In Section 229 of the same Ayat, a woman is permitted to end a tortuous married life by taking khula although she has to go through the Qazi, unlike the man who does not have to fulfil this condition.

This condition was stipulated, once again, to protect the woman because of the possibility of a patriarchal backlash. Maulana Azad, in his explication, states that if the woman for good reasons takes khula, and if she forfeits part of her mehr of her own free will, it is permissible. The implication here is startling in view of the common practice. Most women are brainwashed to believe that for a virtuous wife, it is incumbent to forfeit her mehr altogether. This they do without understanding their rights; and when the husband pronounces talaq, he can throw her out minus the mandatory mehr, however small. But the clear instruction in Islam is that even if a wife takes divorce, she is entitled to mehr; she may of her own free will give up part of it as bargain for her freedom. As commonly practised, however, it is essential for the woman to forsake her mehr if she takes khula.

The fact of the matter is that we Muslims selectively practice whatever suits our need. We indulge in triple talaq, in polygamy, in dodging mehr and maintenance. We ascribe our actions to our religious sanctions and continuously harp on our religious code. But we blatantly violate the injunctions of Islam. We pronounce triple talaq without following the commands pertaining to it. We marry again and again without adhering to the commands pertaining to second and subsequent marriage. Thanks to the way we practice it, Islam is looked upon by the world as the most anti-gender religion. For this perception, it is we Muslims who are to be blamed. It is time we applied the corrective to our own selves and stop using religion as an excuse for our misdemeanours.
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Originally Posted by koolbabs2000

Islam may have made all these rules in those days according to those prevailing times -but please dont follow them now - CHANGE WITH THE TIMES.

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The thing you don't understand here is Islam is not a religion. It is a way of life.. and the koran is the code of conduct.

It is a very strict religion, and there is nobody who could dare make any alterations.

We believe in life after death. Belief in al-akhirah (life after death) is so crucial to the Islamic faith that any doubts about it amount to the denial of Allah (God). Allah’s own word in the Qur’an is the foundation of this faith. Besides, the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) explained the centrality of this belief for a person who wishes to lead an Islamic life.

We know that we have no means of knowing life after death as a perceptual experience. But Allah has given us certain levels of consciousness that provide us with insight into realities not perceptible through the senses. The Qur’an speaks to our rational mind when it answers the disbelievers who ask, “Who will give life to the dead bones?” The answer is, of course, the One Who created them.

Allah in the Holy Qur’an appeals to man’s reasoning and addresses his power of reflection and judgment by asking him to reflect on how rain revives the dead earth. This is something that is obvious to us; if so, how can we then deny the truth of the resurrection, when Almighty Allah can just as easily revive the dead bones as He revives the earth?

(It is Allah Who sends forth the Winds, so that they raise up the clouds, and We drive them to a land that is dead, and revive the earth therewith after its death: even so [will be] the Resurrection!) (35: 9).

The Qur’an repeatedly tells us that those who believe and do righteous deeds will be greatly rewarded in the afterlife, while those who disbelieve and do bad deeds will be severely punished.

Belief in life after death gives meaning to our life, for it tells us that this life is only a test and preparation for an eternal life. Furthermore, we know that in the afterlife we will receive justice for all the wrongs we suffer here. It may seem that the sinful and corrupt are often happier or wealthier than the righteous, but that is only for a short time. In the afterlife they will get their due.

Belief in life after death encourages a person to lead a good life on earth, since he knows the fate that awaits him if he ignores the commands and warnings of Allah given in the Qur’an. In fact, belief in the afterlife is the strongest incentive for a person to lead a life of virtue here. The real road to a peaceful society can be paved only if people believe in an afterlife.

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In Islam, a man is allowed to marry four wives. IF and only if, he can support all the four and treat them equally, and if his wives have no objection to it.

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"And if you fear that you cannot act equitably towards orphans, then marry such women as seem good to you, two and three and four; but if you fear that you will not do justice (between them), then (marry) only one or what your right hands possess; this is more proper...."
The Book of Women 4:3
English translation by M. H. Shakir

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Islam is not a religion. It is a way of life.

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The difference?

Religion == Explanation

One can know the explanation therefore have religion.
If a moral is known does not mean one will follow the moral

Way of Life= Lifestyle

One can have read where by eating bananas causes cancer. That is religion.
One can live a life not eating bananas simply because it's not culturally acceptable
or legal. That is lifestyle. One can embrace a lifestyle without understanding why it exists. "Keeping up appearances."

Having knowledge that something is illegal or immoral does not stop one from commiting an illegal or immoral or dangerous act.
Adopting a life style for public presentation may hide hypocracy.

Then when all else fails omitting pertainent information or selectively choosing which parts of a religion to keep and which parts to disguard.

It's much easier to fight for belief's then to live by them.

If Christian fundementalists were that literal they'd be up on canabalism charges.

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Originally Posted by emm_eye

Belief in life after death encourages a person to lead a good life on earth, since he knows the fate that awaits him if he ignores the commands and warnings of Allah given in the Qur’an. In fact, belief in the afterlife is the strongest incentive for a person to lead a life of virtue here. The real road to a peaceful society can be paved only if people believe in an afterlife.

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And that, my friend, is the world's greatest lie.
You would think that logically that must truly be a condition of belief in an afterlife... wouldn't you?
Unfortunately, there's no evidence or proof to corroborate the theory.
In fact, almost all of the real life examples tend to prove just the opposite.

I would argue that a belief in the afterlife is actually a "legal loophole" in the pursuit of a universally acceptable moral and ethical code for humanity.
A belief in a higher power and and afterlife reward actually justifies and empowers behavior that is not only morally reprehensible and unethical, but also self-destuctive to society and humanity in general.

Witness the unconscienable act of suicide and the taking of innocent life, even children's, on the belief that there will be a great reward in the afterlife of which you have absolutely no proof or even a shred of evidence to it's truth... yet a man can convince himself to do an unspeakable act of pure evil in it's belief.
Witness the taking of a doctor's life or the bombing of a clinic and pregnant women on the belief of a reward in heaven for doing God's work.
Witness the genocide and destruction of millions strictly on the belief that you will receive a reward in the afterlife because some ancient fable commands you to war upon the enemies of your God.
Witness the stoning to death of a women who does not follow one of God's laws as his male followers interpret.
Witness the swindling of life savings and pensions from the poor and elderly on the promise of rewards in heaven while the money is used for the personal benefit of men who supposedly hold a position of favor and closeness with the Almighty.

You could not be more wrong in your assessment if you tried.
The belief in the afterlife may be the most destructive and evil con game that man has ever used against his fellow man.
The belief in a higher authority allows a man to place himself above all the laws, morals, and ethics of humanity and allows him to commit unthinkable evil against his fellow man with a clean concience so long as he is convinced that the act is pleasing to or a benefit to his God and his immortal existence.

Thanks, Frets, for the response, but I was actually asking emm_eye what he concluded the difference to be, since language doesn't always have constant definitions. More to draw emm_eye out than anything else.

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A belief in a higher power and and afterlife reward actually justifies and empowers behavior that is not only morally reprehensible and unethical, but also self-destuctive to society and humanity in general.

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This is both incredibly true, and incredibly curious. It is true in that your belief in an 'afterlife' and thereby a conduct of present life that affects afterlife can and will justify nearly anything you want. You nailed it with your reference to suicide bombers.

But, you say in the same sentence:"morally reprehensible and unethical". Can I ask, by what standard are you coming up with this absolute judgement? You are judging the act of suicide bombing as morally reprehensible and unethical, correct? Well, they are judging the same act as morally righteouss of the highest degree.

What makes you right?

In other words, aren't you, in a single sentence, condemning an action by the very thing you are condemning them for?

Well this has been an interesting and frank discussion.

check my post stamp this thread closes in 24 hours if gerbs doesn't close it quicker.

I think all the participants have represented thier views to the best of thier abilities.
So if you have any closing statements now would be a good time to summerize.

Stay off the bashing as you do or I'll simply send your post to the thread dump no questions asked and you'll be throwing out the baby with the bathwater.


Frets