the interesting dichotomy of design and logic

[aa]

hello everyone:

aside from when Macromedia took the development of Director into something big and serious, Flash presents a new challenge for people. i continually see sites in one of four categories:

1. heavy on the AS, but designwise couldn't design their way out of a paper bag.

2. excellent design, and weak and sometimes even malfunctioning AS

3. excellence in both areas

4. unfortunately, weak in both areas

where do you see yourself in terms of both design and technical nuts & bolts areas? seeing the "design techniques" forum always very low in number of posts somewhat disturbes me, while the scripting forums are overflowing.

part of me thinks that AS can be taught, and design comes a bit more from within -- which would explain the difference in activity in those particular forums.

to be clear, i'm not claiming that one can't be proficient in both areas, it just seems like a very sparce commodity.

i see many people striving for what amounts to "out actionscripting" each other. there's certainly a place for some wacked out custom interactivity, but my opinion is that it should take a back seat to communication at its core. of course this varies from site to site, and from target to target (audiences).

do you find yourselves struggling more with pushing the script boundaries, or that of design? which do you spend more time doing? what gives you more satisfaction and/or passion? or is it the integration of technology and visual arts that is key for you?

[karnak]

nice post, aa..

I started out, well.. I recieved a fine arts education, and painting and contemporary art is where I see myself being grounded. I subsequently became interested in flash, mostly for the challenges of information architecture and interface and navigation design.. I think this is because I have the hardest time doing it. Learning graphic design is a whole other story.. sort of like starting all over again- since the ideas and styles behind contemporary painting don't mix very well with web design..

I've known programming ever since I was a kid messing around with basic and pascal on my parent's macintosh plus, but still I'm not a programmer in the least.

To me flash a near perfect balance between art and programming, considering how many kinds of people use it and what the software is capable of. However with flash 5 I believe that balance was thrown off significantly with the improved AS (and the horrible interface).. to me flash 4 was more designer-oriented... and now it has become so much more about programming. who knows.

Eh.. well, to answer your question I don't think I'm very good at either aspect of flash yet. Every new project you work on makes you a smarter developer. And design is obviously something of a neverending search, much like painting. Not that programming isn't an art, I just think design isn't as "cut and paste" as programming is.

hope that makes some sense.
looking forward to reading more replies

[mg33]

Cool post AA (this absolutely belongs in the Boardroom, and is a cool discussion much thanks.)

Guy (FlashGuru) and I have had some good conversations on this over ICQ in the past.

He is incredible at doing Actionscript, and he's often told me that design is not his strong point.

I feel that design is my strong point, yet I'm way behind in learning much technical AS.

We've both said we'd want to learn much more and improve in the areas we're not too skilled at (Guy & graphic design, Me & AS)

Here's my stance: To do what I like to do in Flash, which is basically convey whatever message/graphic style/emotive theme I choose to do, I don't really need to be too heavy into Actionscript to succeed. I don't need to know how to do all kinds of spinning, variable based effects to get my point across. Flash works wonderfully for the things I like to, no matter how simple they may be.

On that last note, I think a concensus has developed that unless it's obvious you're busting all kinds of insane actionscript on your site, you're not really good at Flash.
For some reason people have come to determine your ability in Flash by what degree of AS skill you have.

That really does not make much sense, and it seems many overlook how incredible of a design environment Flash is for quickly being able to lay out a design, modify it, etc. It's a completely different process from laying out pages in PSHOP and putting them into html, Dreamweaver, GoLive, etc. You can go so far with it without ever becoming a nut for AS.

Another thing I think about sometimes with AS (and in doing so, with total respect and astonishment to the big guns in the world of Actionscript) is this: ultimatly, what is the outcome of having created something complex with Actionscript when the only obvious purpose it serves is to be experimental? I do totally understand that you'd get a great feeling of accomplishment for having done something that people are amazed at, or something that is completely new and different. I just often wonder where there is ever a legitimate use for certain complex AS experiments. In no way I'm I saying they're pointless-like I said I'm amazed by the stuff, and I know I'll never get to such levels in Flash, it's just not my focus.

I think this also brings up an important aspect of this conversation: personal creation vs. client creation.
Many times things are created on personal sites that would never have any use on a site created for a client. But that's a whole different conversation, we can get to that later.

I'll see if I can get Guy in on this and share what he thinks.

Take Care,

mg33

[TheOriginalFlashDavo]

Yes, one of those questions I've been asking myself recently actually.

I've been rather lucky, got a lucky break 4 years ago and immediately started on with a start-up as their designer. Knew sweet FA, but learnt on the job, and eventually after 12 months was doing a pretty fine job - and knew Flash 3 (at that stage) back to front.

I did find myself lacking something though on the design side. It was like I could tell you what designs worked, and why, or how they could be improved and so forth, yet I wasn't happy with what I was producing. My boss was happy though, and the clients too, but I wasn't. I think it came a little from having no formal design training. Anyway, after 18 months with my first company I left and went to one of the big boys in Australia - as a project maanger. Decided the young guns were just so much better than me.

But 4 months ago, after a year of hands-off project managing, I came back to designing, now creative manager (well, I'm it!) at another start-up. Decided I had to have another go.

Am currently trying to work out how to produce the images I see in my head?!?!? Know what I mean?? I can see fantastic designs and images when I kind of sit back and close my eyes, but then trying to produce them.... argh!! Very frustrating. Am still keeping my bosses and clients happy, but I want more!! My own just finished site - www.envisionous.com - is getting closer to what I want, so maybe I am learning... slowly.

In the meantime I'll keep picking up more and more AS (although never all of it - don't want to be a programmer) and keep refining my designs.

By the way aa, I do like your site. Sweet...

Cheers
Dave

[McMurphy]

Hey guys.. mind if I jump in?

My job title is "Flash Designer/Developer" and most ppl don't understand how the 2 can live together. They seem to think its an un-natural mix of 2 worlds, 2 beings and that either you are a full time designer or a full time developer.

I consider my self to be an artist, not the Picasso kind, just the kind of person who has to create and express him self in order to feel alive.
Programming is something I find difficult to understand sometimes but at the same time an amazing challenge.Both mentally and creatively.

I believe Flash gave birth to terms like "Creative Programming" and "Programming Design", and that they are not just a fancy combination of two popular words.
Sites like http://www.once-upon-a-forest.com by the contemporary Artist Josh Davis show us how AS can be used as a strong expressive tool.
Action Script artists and designers are here, and they are here to stay.

Web sites that, in the future will be referred to as "web experiences" (I hope), will have to be innovative and interesting in order to get ppl's attention, we all know that. I believe that one must always use AS (even hardcore AS )in order to create something that will make ppl go "WOW!.. holy sh*t!" and that's the bottom line in the business.

In conclusion, since its the technological tools that change and get better every year (design aspects such as type, color, storytelling, usability are sort of fixed and we all except them that way) it is our job as Media Designers to mold them into creative ideas and vision the artistic potential they hold.

McMurphy

[phooka]

Mmmm... cool indeed!

I've always seen myself weak in both areas...

1) Refering to design, I am like a sponge. Everything I design is a mixture of input from other people, that I try to display in a coherent manner, so I suppose I am a bad designer.

2) Refering to AS, I use it only when I need it. I am a fan of the "put & paste" code, and I only try to create more AS code when is completely necessary...

However, my clients seem to like my sites, so I would add a new category:

1. heavy on the AS, but designwise couldn't design their way out of a paper bag.

2. excellent design, and weak and sometimes even malfunctioning AS

3. excellence in both areas

4. unfortunately, weak in both areas

5. unfortunately, weak in both areas but it makes you earn big bucks and both critics and clients like it!

[FlashGuru]

wow cool thread! thanks for inviting me mike

Well i see any type of scripting a skill, people can be taught the syntax of a programming language but there is more to programming than just code, you have to think in a logical way, you have to know how to optimize code, which code to use where, how to structure code and lots of other factors. Design is a skill and can also not be taught, you can be taught the theory behind design but if you dont posses the creativity inside of you then basically you wont ever be a ground-breaking designer.


Keep this conversation running as its very interesting!

[baudsley]

good post aa..

i muchly agree with what you have said.

i personally think that as should take a back seat, and that design is, at least in my case, the driving force behind what i do.

In my opinion, as is an important factor, but i use it as a tool, a tool to achieve something that i wouldnt normally be able to do, like multiple windows, or swf loading.

The challenge, excitement and love for flash does not come from me writing a good bit of actionscript, but from looking at the site when it is finished, the navigation, menu interaction, overall design of the site and seeing that it was what i set out to achieve.

whether my sites fit into any of the catageories you have outlined, is certainly questionable, especially after my boss decides he likes the design but doesnt like the background image, or the menu structure.....

cheers


ben

[pigghost]

Great subject!

Personally, I think that's the beauty of web design in general, be it Flash or otherwise......it can be the perfect blending of art and science.

Originally, I was drawn to Flash4 for its artistic aspect, but these days with Flash5, I find I get a lot of satisfaction from getting a script to work the way I envisioned it........whether it's an ActionScript, JavaScript, or Perl script..........



-pigghost-


[Edited by pigghost on 03-27-2001 at 11:59 AM]

[dutchboyjermaine]

i think that a good creative mixture of design/flash/action scripting would generate a site that will never b forgotten.

the hard part is how does one accomplish such a smooth blend between this thingz.

its very simple
let your mind and creativity ( if u have such a vivid imagination) guide you

some of the greatest artist in our history didnt know one bit about theory, they started their own theory ( so i think )

if u know flash and actionscript i think that you should b a good damn designer if you know how to integrate those two in such a way that they amaze your viewers, but at the same time they site sticks to the core of webdesign and makes sure that it send a message

i may b wrong
byt hey its my opinion

[XLR8]

I had an instructor (before the advent of flash), who thought himself an Enigma. Because he had the background of an artist (much like myself), and the training in design, he considered himself the best of both worlds. But, I have yet found a designer or programmer who extreamly excels at both. You need to be a bilaterial thinker, using both the left and right hemispheres of the brain.
It's hard to be creative when thinking logically, an hence the parody of flash. But what I have found works best for me is to make an intial design on paper, and use actionscripting to make my ideas come alive. For me, it's easier to use my knowledge for design, and Flashkit as a reference to my actionscripting. -X (great post)

[aa]

great responses everyone -- this is just what i was looking for from you all.

i've recently thought about how technology is beginning to change the face of visual communication. it can't be ignored any longer. sure, there will always be traditional media, such as painting or film for example, yet it's the interaction with the viewer that ultimately is derived from 1's and 0's that is defining a new method of communication all its own.

i think that, when done thoughtfully, coding itself becomes artistic in a sense. anyone else agree?

yes, i'm familiar with the brain hemisphere theory (more like fact i realize), but when they interact with each other in such a way that Flash facilitates, they could almost be considered to create a third, sort of nebulous, result.

[McUsher]

I have slightly different theories:

As i learned in my arcitectural studies in University
there's NEVER something like a really NEW idea.
Everything you put out in your creativity is a new
composition of fragments of ideas you have seen before.

I allways struggled with this theory -- it sounds
like determination to creativity (baaahh).
I even thought that 'knowing' is narrowing your
creativity to what u know.

So i made up my mind lots of times with this. In the end i came up to the conclusion, that this theory is right.
The most simple way for me to explain it to myself was
thinking of a writer. The more words he knows, the more
possibilitys he has expressing an emotion or whatever.

Now it comes to flash: Untill now i couldn't really do
the step from threedimensional-design to web-design,
But i am a real good flash scripter. So what i did, was
working together with a web-designer, who knows nothing
about programming.

And i was surprised. He was doing a much better job, on
having ideas about what to do with flash as i had, altough
i know everything about flash-programming. So i believe that it comes only to a interdiscipline work when authoring
the flash. The creative part doesn't really needs the programmers part.
I just can speek for myself, but knowing about how to
programm what in flash is narrowing my field of creativity
as my ideas for flash-desing are more coming out of the
programming part....

damn, i have to drink some real descend italian whine
and forgot everything about programming, when i do my next
desing

[Kraken]

Ah, the eternal struggle, logic vs. feelings. Personally, I love both sides of this war. The feeling that you have after busting your brain to place that final graphic in just the right spot in your photoshop piece is the same feeling after busting your brain trying to get your code to do what you want and you catch that missing " and poof, it works!

Exhillariting (sp?)!
Fun!
Wild!

Until Flash came along, I believe there really was a rift between the 2 disciplines. I mean, at the agency I work for, until I became a motion graphics designer, I was working as a production designer, cutting gifs and optimizing jpgs. How much of the code did I see of the pages we created? Zip. Nil. Nada. Not that it didn't interest me, it just wasn't part of my job and we didn't work much with the technologists.

Now, though, I am called upon to work with the technologists, solving problems with PHP and XML and finding new and interesting ways to present information and graphics through flash.

Truly a marriage of the minds and wow, there's some cool stuff just coming down the pipe!