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Are there any other flashkit members out there in the London area looking for permanent work?? (i do freelance stuff but am also looking for permanent work)
[RANT]over the past 8 months i have approached numerous recruitment agencies, but i could count on the fingers of one hand (well one finger actually) the number of agencies who take a serious professional interest in their potential applicants
just wondering how many other poor souls out there like myself have had to put up with the "standard answer response" for any question that you ask them (and they do have an answer to suit themselves for absolutley everything) - i swear most of them dont actually listen to you
extract from typical phone conversation
ME: so can you give me any details about the SPECIFIC job i emailed you about this morning
REC: sorry that position has been filled, that vacancy should have been removed from the database
OR
REC: perhaps if you could come in to our offices and we could go through al your skills and experience blah blah....
OR
REC: im afraid we cant reveal the identity of the client until they propose to interview you
..............the list goes on and on .............
i have even written to the DofE to complain about the practices of these agencies - their response was that unless you can prove they are advertising jobs which do not exist then there is not really much that we can do
any experienced jobhunter will have figured out that it is feasible that a great many of the jobs you see on "JobPortal Websites" possibly dont exist. From my personal experience the agency can NEVER follow up with any "specific information" regarding a "specific vacancy" and it is not just isolated instances. This occurs with just about every single enquiry that i have made.
The other option is that they just simply email/write to you and say sorry we dont have anything suitable but we'll keep your CV on record and if anything does blah blah etc.... (strange, i thought "that specific job" was suitable for me otherwise i wouldnt have wasted my time applying for it!??)
sorry this is such a long drawn out rant but i've got a sneaking suspicion that there are many more people out there in the same boat as myself who find the working practices of these "recruitment agencies" to be absolutley disgraceful [/RANT]
if like me you are getting really p***** with recruitment agencies then please post your response
and if you are a recruiter then, sure... why not...i'd love to give you 20% of my prospective salary just for being patronising to me and making two or three phonecalls on my behalf,....honest, trust me ...i'm a flasher
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for what its worth , i agree wholeheartedly. I work contract/freelance, and for the couple of good jobs i have got out of agencies in the last year, i have wasted weeks of my life on the phone to people about jobs which don't actually exist. And every time, having to listen to their (identical) sales "patter" and wasting your time pumping you for information on where you're working, where you have worked, etc. And if you do get to work somewhere you like, you can't work for them direct within a year usually, due to the contract.
When there are no appropriate jobs, they will still call you up/encourage your interest because they are basically sales people and there is so much competition in the marketplace (despite the fact that this is totally illogical they don't mind wasting yr time).
And yes, i believe they do post bogus jobs to get your details. Also i have experienced them asking for "references" for a job which never existed, and using those references as sales leads. NEVER give them a reference unless you have interviewed.
They have no idea what the "skillsets" they ask for actually mean (ie one asked me if i knew "flash 5.2"). They disregard any criteria you might ask for (ie "i want a contract less than 3 months in london"..."I've got a 6 month contract in ireland, how about that").
Undoubtedly there are some nice and conscientious people working in the industry, but i have to say they are in the minority.
Essentially, they perform a useful function, but since i have never experienced them "vetting" or even asking to meet me(their supposed added value), if agencies didnt exist, the exact same function could be performed by things like the flashkit jobs forum (as was  ) to find work and not get ripped off for 20% of it!
nice to get that rant off my chest 
Try http://www.freelancehq.com/ for a listing of what other people have to say about agencies.
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It's no better in Leeds either. They all claim that they are the biggest/best agency in the area and have millions of highly paid jobs but we all know it's B/S......
I've had a number of interviews with them and then you never hear back. I think they're in cahoots with the bus drivers just to get your bus fare when you trek to some god-foresaken business park in the middle of nowhere for a pointless interview!
Recruitment consulatants on the whole are scumbags that actually have no interest in finding you work since that would constitute working hard....Flash 5.2 does sound good though.....got a copy.....I could use it to go with Dreamweaver 15.7.........
My recommendation: Crime probably does pay in the end....
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i decided to add something positive 
you can survive without them...
since starting out on my own, i have got interesting, well paid work direct from flashkit, were-here.com and freelancers.net. Also by just writing to companies you like the look of and asking if they have a requirement for freelance work, they will keep you on file(try to be very specific about what you can offer). Remember, these companies don't like working with agencies either. If they can get someone direct, without paying commission, they often will.
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agreed - the best results ive had with looking for perm work are by aproaching companies directly - one recently even held my CV for over four months and then called me in for an interview but i was pipped at the post by somebody with "added PERL" experience
the skillsets thing is a giveaway too sometimes - like much media b/s doing the rounds, these agencies typically learn all the buzzwords and skillsets - sometimes the combinations of skillsets and software is the giveaway (many of them list Quark Xpress as a preferred skill fro webdesign)
if they ask if i can hand-code my stock answer is "well i can cut the grass with a pair of scissors if you really want, but personally i think it would be better to use a lawn mower"
i agree they are not all nasty people - but then again what can you say about a recruitment consultant who calls you and proceeds to tell you that he's not like all the rest!!
(yeah well put your money where your mouth is)
i do agree - we can survive without them - at first i was over eager to seek permanent work but i soon learnt that all these agencies are good for is running your own phone bill through the roof
the final biscuit was a job interview i went to 2 weeks ago - the girl at the agency didnt even bother to call me the next day to ask how the interview went - i heard nothing for 2weeks so i rang the company and told them i was disgusted with the agency for being so unprofessional and disinterested and that if they gave me the job she would want 20% of my salary for doing absolutley b****r all- i had a letter in the post the next day from the agency saying that the client did not wish to pursue my application any further -
strange after the company had already allowed me to cancel two previous interviews on very lame excuses on my part, as they were very keen to see me as they liked the look of my work - i almost felt sorry for the girl at the agency, after all she had to stop filing her nails and do some work and type a letter to me (it didnt look like a standard letter either!) oh dear
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Originally posted by steve777
these agencies typically learn all the buzzwords and skillsets - sometimes the combinations of skillsets and software is the giveaway (many of them list Quark Xpress as a preferred skill fro webdesign)
if they ask if i can hand-code my stock answer is "well i can cut the grass with a pair of scissors if you really want, but personally i think it would be better to use a lawn mower"
LOL, it's so true...they just recite a list of stuff without the least clue of what it means.
And as for their "service"...after emailing me three times at my address @urbanomic.com and receiving my cv, one large agency sent a contract in triplicate made out to urbanornic.com, with every line in my address spelled wrongly too. Obviously they havent learned to copy and paste yet and employ illiterate people to hand-copy words, carry them over to a different computer, and type them in again!
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Just wanted to add my name to the list of Flash people fed up with recruitment agencies. In fact I rarely come into contact with them now, but in the past I was signed up to a few. What a waste of my time they were. They often had no idea what they were talking about, and IMHO advertised jobs which didn't exist. I think advertising non-existent jobs is pretty commonplace. An agency can gain loads of useful info and clients by advertising a lucrative post, and who is to say it doesn't exist?
I know some people have had good experiences with recruitment agencies, and good luck to them.
But IMHO they best idea is to avoid them where possible.
Devoto.
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ha! so pretty unanimous then - just as i suspected - agencies suck
my personal philosophy in life regarding other people is that i always give them the benefit of the doubt and try to see the best traits in individuals, but im afraid recruitment consultants are now ranked down to the level of estate agents
in fact the average recruiter, (I will call them recruiters from here onwards because calling them consultants makes them sound far too grand and important) would probably run a very poor second to Chris Evans in the popularity stakes
has absolutley nobody got a good word for them??? - i doubt it
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I read yesterday that the government is proposing to quite strictly regulate the recruitment industry in the UK.
The funny thing was that the industry itself does not want to be regulated - apparently a few bad apples and all that!!
I don't know if regulation will work or what in itself is being proposed but I think they are running out of friends quite rapidly.....shame.
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thanks for that list devoto
i agree - the best results i have had (if you can call being second in line for the job offer a result), have been through exactly the method you have described
as there has been not much good press i will give credit where it is due and say that the only London Agency i have experienced to have behaved satisfactorily is a well-known and established media recruitment agency and in my eyes have proved themselves to be better than all the other "media specialists", their initals are PJ- i'm not going to explicitly name them, but they were businesslike and professional at processing my application for the webdesign job at http://www.rfu.com - i was second offer again (!) - gutted (big rugby fan you see)
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I rant about this all the time on the Job Boards!! Another point is that the market is flooded with so called web designers who are really secretaries and administrators that think learning html makes them a great web designer. Now no one takes you seriously if your resume has the words web designer. Ugh... I just got a call back from the cruiters and they didn't even have a prospect for me. They just called to see if I really existed. They've apparantly been in business three months now, and need to build potential clientele. Geez.
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i just had another call from a recruitment agency, who within the space of a telephone conversation claimed to be from two different agencies. When i told them i had work, of course they wanted me to tell them who for, where, at what rate, and acted "hurt" when i wouldnt tell them all these details.
In my experience, whenever i have thought "oh, that agency seems OK", it turns out to be just the one person i am dealing with, and the rest are typically dim!
I would recommend Computer People if only because they are big, and a large majority of the work available goes through them.
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Challenge the Conventional
I've had experience from both sides of an agency. Both when looking for new work myslef, and when looking to recruit people.
Both experiences werent the best. All these folk care about is there commision. They do NOT under any circumstance care about you. I had one woman phone me and start to critasie my CV and portfolio and the work. When I asked here hoe much experience she had with new media, and if she had any design experience she refused to answer. The conversation was terminated immedietly! I got put forward to an interview with a company looking for a junior designer ... with nearly 5 years new media experiecne, working within the film and entertainment industry I was just slightly over qualified .. and they could only afford to pay 1/3rd of my asking sallary. Not only a wast of 2 hours of my time, but a waste of that companies time.
Then, you have the other side. These agencies scour the websites of design firms looking for jobs being advertised and then contact you trying to send CV's in of 'appropriate' applicants. I use the term appropriate very lightly ... I have NEVER had a good CV from a recruitment agency. For example I was looking for a middle-senior weight designer about 18 months ago, the job was advertised on the site, and within a week I was bombarded by recruitment agencys who wanted to send my CV's. Persistant buggers that they are I allowed them to send me ones who had 2-3 years experience and recornisable brand names on their CV. One arrives, a young many of 16, just left school, has 1 URL on his CV for tom Thumb the plumber, who was his mates DAD .... nnedless to say he didnt get an interview ...
I could go on with more stories but I think you get my point. THey are not interested in getting you the right job, theyre just going for their cut ...
The moral of the story ... dont use em ... they are ALL SLIMY G**S !!!
[sorry for the string language but It's somthing that realy gets my goat]
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we should call some sort of direct action protest/boycott of them all!
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Challenge the Conventional
Just to ad some more fuel to our argument ... Last week here in the UK a certain web site - clickAJob went a setp further. The lazy buggers there couldnt be bothered to do the leg work in looking for positions to fill so just pinched them off all the other web agencies sites .. just linked direct into their content.
eeek ... isee a long leagal rengling over this one !!
P
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I am not going to disagree with you, and I understand exactly what you are saying..
I started looking for a job in web design 9 months ago, The agencys gave me all that you are talking about, I figured it would be just that, however I had the last exam on the friday, and got a job on the tuesday, the only involvement they had was that I found the job on their site.. (direct job advert rather than actually using them)
Do you figure any of them ever phoned me back?
No..
6 months later however I had a completely different experience, I was made redundant (the job was with a .com!!)
I left the meeting picked up the phone and started calling my list of agencys, (this was the friday)
I rewrote my CV on the monday and spent the whole day on the phone to these people chasing them up constantly..
Tuesday shocked me they called me back.. I got put for at least 15 jobs, got 4 interviews that day... and a futher 3 on the wednesday.. including one telephone that day..
Thursday I went for a face to face interview, got the job, but it was to build banners all day (I don't think so!!)
Turned it down..
Went for anouther on the friday, got called back for a second that afternoon, and was offered the job at end of play..
The woman at this agency was one of the best I have ever known, she still phones me now to check I am happy here etc..
Anyway my point is, dont write them off because of bad experience.. Yes most of them don't care, no most of them won't call.. but in the end if one finds you a job, surely it is worthwhile??
L.
[Edited by The Lore on 05-11-2001 at 03:04 PM]
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It does seem that a high percentage of 'recruiters' are a waste of space. I especially like Peter H's experience:-
I allowed them to send me ones who had 2-3 years experience and recornisable brand names on their CV. One arrives, a young many of 16, just left school, has 1 URL on his CV for tom Thumb the plumber, who was his mates DAD .... nnedless to say he didnt get an interview ...
LOL!
Of course The Lore is right, there are going to be genuinely good recruiters out there, who do give a **** and who do actually know about the industry. These are the people that will do well, if they can shrug off the bad rep they're getting from the other morons out there.
I was recently thinking about moving to London and looking for work, so I checked out London Web co.'s and quite a few had notices up saying 'No Recruitment Agencies' please. I think its best to contact companies directly > saves time and a lot of money.
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i agree - the best way is to approach these companies direct or respond to ads in design week where they explicitly state "no agencies" - i cant help get the feeling that a lot of employers would prefer somebody with the "get up and go" to approach them by their own methods
knowing what agencies are like now, i will never use them again to look for work because if i was an employer i would personally regard using recruitment agencies as being lazy and lacking a bit in the initiative department - i would certainly be much more impressed if a person just contacted me out of the blue with the direct aproach and said "here's my CV, here are my URL's, what do you think?" even more so if you can supply good personal references too
i am also contemplating collating all these responses to this thread into one letter and forwarding it on to the department of employment as a follow up to my first letter to them complaining about the disturbing number of aparently bogus jobs on the job portal sites - (if i do i will naturally email everybody in the thread to request your permission)
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