FORGIVE 'EM...

[laillacool]

I see that there are a lot of disagreements here, and i sympathise with you all obviously they should arrest the criminals, i may not agree or disagree but i wont start an argument now. But i think they should not attack Afganistan why attack a whole country because some people have done wrong? Punish the bad, not the inicent. Its not fair.

Now on to a later note if you disagree with may you can say so but this is my opionion and you do not need to argue with me. I felt that obviously what the terroists did were wrong but look at palestine and what is happening there. Why can't someone help them end this disgusting war, you see England and other countries willing to help America because 5,000 or so people have died but palestine is losing thousands of people a day? They even kill inicent little children? But is there any minutes of silence for them? No, does it appear on the news for dayds and days on every channel? No, or does anyone even bother to help? NO!!!


~Lailla~

[pwilster]

I really want Osama and his group to pay for what they did but I also don´t think that bombing terrorist camps without any further changes in the way of thinking how to address the terrorist problem will solve this problems in the long run. Will destroying Osama and other terrorist leaders end the terrorism in the world?, I doubt it. There should be a deeper approach to what it is done today to fight them. It is way more complex than a bunch of bastards willing to kill themselves and many others with them, there are deep problems we need to address in order to change that notion that life is meaningless and to change that we will need things much more powerful and long lasting than the blast of heavy bombs.

[johnie]

Originally posted by laillacool
I see that there are a lot of disagreements here, and i sympathise with you all obviously they should arrest the criminals, i may not agree or disagree but i wont start an argument now. But i think they should not attack Afganistan why attack a whole country because some people have done wrong? Punish the bad, not the inicent. Its not fair.

Now on to a later note if you disagree with may you can say so but this is my opionion and you do not need to argue with me. I felt that obviously what the terroists did were wrong but look at palestine and what is happening there. Why can't someone help them end this disgusting war, you see England and other countries willing to help America because 5,000 or so people have died but palestine is losing thousands of people a day? They even kill inicent little children? But is there any minutes of silence for them? No, does it appear on the news for dayds and days on every channel? No, or does anyone even bother to help? NO!!!


~Lailla~

First it is more than 5,000 people. Those Building hold over 50,000 people. The Death count to Date is already well above 5,000.


Second, the US has tried to end the War in Palestine- The Palestinians do not want to end it. In Fact The last Peace Talks, Which the US was involved in, Isreal was willing to give many great concesions for peace and was rejected- The counter offer made by the PLO was just ridiculous. The Isreali have suffered much greater losses with daily bombings of very civilian targets such as Resturants, Discos, Elementry school buses, Elementry schools, Shopping centers-

In fact look at the PLO targets and compare that to the Isreali targets- which are government building, Terrorist camps, missle installments, Houses of Known Terrorist- Do you see the diffrence here. It really gets me when people acuse Isreal of being a terrorist state- which just is not true while the PLO, however in the first 5 lines of its charter comes right out and spells it out "WE ARE A TERRORIST ORGINIZATION DESIGNED TO WAGE A WAR OF TERROR AGAINST ISREAL"

It is also interesting to note that the Plaestinians would not be fighting and would have a country caled Palestine if they would have accepted the UN Proposition in 1948. It is also interesting to note that Jordan sits on 70% of historical Palestine- If they would have named the country Palestine isntead of Jordan I wonder wht the fanatics would be calling themselves?

[kb1827]

Originally posted by johnie
First it is more than 5,000 people. Those Building hold over 50,000 people. The Death count to Date is already well above 5,000.

And about/over 70,000 visitors daily.

[Sualdam]

Originally posted by jamble7000
you can't just release someone with a "slap on the wrist" for something like this. Even though it has still to established who was responsible for the attacks, it is almost (although not) a declaration of war on the US. How could you suggest this sort of live and let live solution for this incident?

The matter needs to be resolved in an international court and the perpatrators bought to justice and punished in a matter most fitting the magnitude of the crime. Along with this, as GWB stated, the country/ies harbouring and helping these people should also be bought to account.

It's the only way to attempt to stop this sort of act in the future.

I agree that this particular instance (because of its severity) cannot go unpunished.

But a 'slap on the wrist' is standard diplomatic policy in ANY country for normal terrorist attacks. Care is essential if the innocent are not to be punished - that makes you as bad as the original perpetrators.

In the UK, I've never been able to understand how IRA terrorists have been allowed to shoot guns to mark deaths of colleagues without security force intervention. POssession of guns, use of guns - it's illegal over here.

This situation is a new one. The key issue now is the future - not the past.

[Sualdam]

Originally posted by RuneVolker

Originally posted by swampy

Originally posted by RuneVolker

Yes it has been done in either japan or china I believe.

It was attempted in the first trade center bombing in the 90's as well but luckily the chemicals were vaporized by the explosion.

Imagine a massive chemical or biological attack in downtown Los Angeles or any other metropolitan city on a large scale. The attack carried out in Japan or China was not that large but affected many people. A large attack which we should be anticipating would be devastating with long termn ramifications.

It was in Japan.

Asbestos was used in the construction of the world trade center and has subsequently been powderised and dispersed in it's destruction. They didn't need to construct a chemical weapon, there was one there waiting for them.

Asbestos is no where near the threat that anthrax is. Not even close

Here's the proof.
http://www.anthrax.osd.mil/HTML_interface/default.html

Let me get this straight.

Is someone suggesting that the WTC was hit because of asbestos?

Guys. Please get back to the main issue.

[Sualdam]

Originally posted by johnie

Originally posted by kb1827

Originally posted by gurdas
i dont think india is going to get involved?

They, along with pakistan have allowed the US to base troops off of the 2 countries (from what I heard).

From what I have heard Pakistan has not agreed yet. In fact Pakistan was warning the US that they would retaliate if we just go in and bomb Afghanstan just yesterday.

Also a note here is that the Taliban is not seen by most countries as the legitimate goverment in that country. In Iran, and we know how liberal and moderate they are, it is an insult to be called as harsh as the Taliban and in general they critisize them for being to extreme.

Not true (it may have been technically true when you posted, but I won't get into that).

Pakistan is on 'our' side.

Even yesterday, Colin Powell had to deal with idiots who decided that because Pakistan ends in '-stan' it must have been involved.

In the UK today, many mosques observed the 3 minute silence and said prayers for the victims.

[Sualdam]

Originally posted by johnie

Originally posted by laillacool
I see that there are a lot of disagreements here, and i sympathise with you all obviously they should arrest the criminals, i may not agree or disagree but i wont start an argument now. But i think they should not attack Afganistan why attack a whole country because some people have done wrong? Punish the bad, not the inicent. Its not fair.

Now on to a later note if you disagree with may you can say so but this is my opionion and you do not need to argue with me. I felt that obviously what the terroists did were wrong but look at palestine and what is happening there. Why can't someone help them end this disgusting war, you see England and other countries willing to help America because 5,000 or so people have died but palestine is losing thousands of people a day? They even kill inicent little children? But is there any minutes of silence for them? No, does it appear on the news for dayds and days on every channel? No, or does anyone even bother to help? NO!!!


~Lailla~

First it is more than 5,000 people. Those Building hold over 50,000 people. The Death count to Date is already well above 5,000.


Second, the US has tried to end the War in Palestine- The Palestinians do not want to end it. In Fact The last Peace Talks, Which the US was involved in, Isreal was willing to give many great concesions for peace and was rejected- The counter offer made by the PLO was just ridiculous. The Isreali have suffered much greater losses with daily bombings of very civilian targets such as Resturants, Discos, Elementry school buses, Elementry schools, Shopping centers-

In fact look at the PLO targets and compare that to the Isreali targets- which are government building, Terrorist camps, missle installments, Houses of Known Terrorist- Do you see the diffrence here. It really gets me when people acuse Isreal of being a terrorist state- which just is not true while the PLO, however in the first 5 lines of its charter comes right out and spells it out "WE ARE A TERRORIST ORGINIZATION DESIGNED TO WAGE A WAR OF TERROR AGAINST ISREAL"

It is also interesting to note that the Plaestinians would not be fighting and would have a country caled Palestine if they would have accepted the UN Proposition in 1948. It is also interesting to note that Jordan sits on 70% of historical Palestine- If they would have named the country Palestine isntead of Jordan I wonder wht the fanatics would be calling themselves?

You really have a lot to learn.

'Ending wars' isn't about the US popping in and asking people to sign a piece of paper. There is usually hundreds of years history involved.

Our world is complex. People are complex.

[jaredigital]

If no one fought back against evil people, they would rule the Earth.

is that what God wants? for all mankind to live under the shadow of fear and death?

i would think not.

we should not harbor hatred for whoever did this, but we can't be expected to do nothing about it. if it means that we have to kill to ensure this does not happen again to us OR to other nations, then kill we must.

it is better for the wicked few to die than for the whole world to suffer.

[johnie]

Originally posted by Sualdam

Originally posted by johnie

Originally posted by laillacool
I see that there are a lot of disagreements here, and i sympathise with you all obviously they should arrest the criminals, i may not agree or disagree but i wont start an argument now. But i think they should not attack Afganistan why attack a whole country because some people have done wrong? Punish the bad, not the inicent. Its not fair.

Now on to a later note if you disagree with may you can say so but this is my opionion and you do not need to argue with me. I felt that obviously what the terroists did were wrong but look at palestine and what is happening there. Why can't someone help them end this disgusting war, you see England and other countries willing to help America because 5,000 or so people have died but palestine is losing thousands of people a day? They even kill inicent little children? But is there any minutes of silence for them? No, does it appear on the news for dayds and days on every channel? No, or does anyone even bother to help? NO!!!


~Lailla~

First it is more than 5,000 people. Those Building hold over 50,000 people. The Death count to Date is already well above 5,000.


Second, the US has tried to end the War in Palestine- The Palestinians do not want to end it. In Fact The last Peace Talks, Which the US was involved in, Isreal was willing to give many great concesions for peace and was rejected- The counter offer made by the PLO was just ridiculous. The Isreali have suffered much greater losses with daily bombings of very civilian targets such as Resturants, Discos, Elementry school buses, Elementry schools, Shopping centers-

In fact look at the PLO targets and compare that to the Isreali targets- which are government building, Terrorist camps, missle installments, Houses of Known Terrorist- Do you see the diffrence here. It really gets me when people acuse Isreal of being a terrorist state- which just is not true while the PLO, however in the first 5 lines of its charter comes right out and spells it out "WE ARE A TERRORIST ORGINIZATION DESIGNED TO WAGE A WAR OF TERROR AGAINST ISREAL"

It is also interesting to note that the Plaestinians would not be fighting and would have a country caled Palestine if they would have accepted the UN Proposition in 1948. It is also interesting to note that Jordan sits on 70% of historical Palestine- If they would have named the country Palestine isntead of Jordan I wonder wht the fanatics would be calling themselves?

You really have a lot to learn.

'Ending wars' isn't about the US popping in and asking people to sign a piece of paper. There is usually hundreds of years history involved.

Our world is complex. People are complex.

They are trying to end the war in the area.

I agree with what you are saying but Isreal is not a terrorist state. If they were the targets that they have been hitting would be much diffrent.

-Also the fanatics in this region will not stop until Isreal is destroyed. In 1967 they were saying wipe them into the sea.

http://www.jajz-ed.org.il/100/maps/

This is the official PLO Charter translated into English by the PLO-

Text of the Charter:
Article 1: Palestine is the homeland of the Arab Palestinian people; it is an indivisible part of the Arab homeland, and the Palestinian people are an integral part of the Arab nation.

Article 2: Palestine, with the boundaries it had during the British Mandate, is an indivisible territorial unit.

Article 3: The Palestinian Arab people possess the legal right to their homeland and have the right to determine their destiny after achieving the liberation of their country in accordance with their wishes and entirely of their own accord and will.

Article 4: The Palestinian identity is a genuine, essential, and inherent characteristic; it is transmitted from parents to children. The Zionist occupation and the dispersal of the Palestinian Arab people, through the disasters which befell them, do not make them lose their Palestinian identity and their membership in the Palestinian community, nor do they negate them.

Article 5: The Palestinians are those Arab nationals who, until 1947, normally resided in Palestine regardless of whether they were evicted from it or have stayed there. Anyone born, after that date, of a Palestinian father - whether inside Palestine or outside it - is also a Palestinian.

Article 6: The Jews who had normally resided in Palestine until the beginning of the Zionist invasion will be considered Palestinians.

Article 7: That there is a Palestinian community and that it has material, spiritual, and historical connection with Palestine are indisputable facts. It is a national duty to bring up individual Palestinians in an Arab revolutionary manner. All means of information and education must be adopted in order to acquaint the Palestinian with his country in the most profound manner, both spiritual and material, that is possible. He must be prepared for the armed struggle and ready to sacrifice his wealth and his life in order to win back his homeland and bring about its liberation.

Article 8: The phase in their history, through which the Palestinian people are now living, is that of national (watani) struggle for the liberation of Palestine. Thus the conflicts among the Palestinian national forces are secondary, and should be ended for the sake of the basic conflict that exists between the forces of Zionism and of imperialism on the one hand, and the Palestinian Arab people on the other. On this basis the Palestinian masses, regardless of whether they are residing in the national homeland or in diaspora (mahajir) constitute - both their organizations and the individuals - one national front working for the retrieval of Palestine and its liberation through armed struggle.

Article 9: Armed struggle is the only way to liberate Palestine. Thus it is the overall strategy, not merely a tactical phase. The Palestinian Arab people assert their absolute determination and firm resolution to continue their armed struggle and to work for an armed popular revolution for the liberation of their country and their return to it. They also assert their right to normal life in Palestine and to exercise their right to self-determination and sovereignty over it.

Article 10: Commando action constitutes the nucleus of the Palestinian popular liberation war. This requires its escalation, comprehensiveness, and the mobilization of all the Palestinian popular and educational efforts and their organization and involvement in the armed Palestinian revolution. It also requires the achieving of unity for the national (watani) struggle among the different groupings of the Palestinian people, and between the Palestinian people and the Arab masses, so as to secure the continuation of the revolution, its escalation, and victory.

Article 11: The Palestinians will have three mottoes: national (wataniyya) unity, national (qawmiyya) mobilization, and liberation.

Article 12: The Palestinian people believe in Arab unity. In order to contribute their share toward the attainment of that objective, however, they must, at the present stage of their struggle, safeguard their Palestinian identity and develop their consciousness of that identity, and oppose any plan that may dissolve or impair it.

Article 13: Arab unity and the liberation of Palestine are two complementary objectives, the attainment of either of which facilitates the attainment of the other. Thus, Arab unity leads to the liberation of Palestine, the liberation of Palestine leads to Arab unity; and work toward the realization of one objective proceeds side by side with work toward the realization of the other.

Article 14: The destiny of the Arab nation, and indeed Arab existence itself, depend upon the destiny of the Palestine cause. From this interdependence springs the Arab nation's pursuit of, and striving for, the liberation of Palestine. The people of Palestine play the role of the vanguard in the realization of this sacred (qawmi) goal.

Article 15: The liberation of Palestine, from an Arab viewpoint, is a national (qawmi) duty and it attempts to repel the Zionist and imperialist aggression against the Arab homeland, and aims at the elimination of Zionism in Palestine. Absolute responsibility for this falls upon the Arab nation - peoples and governments - with the Arab people of Palestine in the vanguard. Accordingly, the Arab nation must mobilize all its military, human, moral, and spiritual capabilities to participate actively with the Palestinian people in the liberation of Palestine. It must, particularly in the phase of the armed Palestinian revolution, offer and furnish the Palestinian people with all possible help, and material and human support, and make available to them the means and opportunities that will enable them to continue to carry out their leading role in the armed revolution, until they liberate their homeland.

Article 16: The liberation of Palestine, from a spiritual point of view, will provide the Holy Land with an atmosphere of safety and tranquility, which in turn will safeguard the country's religious sanctuaries and guarantee freedom of worship and of visit to all, without discrimination of race, color, language, or religion. Accordingly, the people of Palestine look to all spiritual forces in the world for support.

Article 17: The liberation of Palestine, from a human point of view, will restore to the Palestinian individual his dignity, pride, and freedom. Accordingly the Palestinian Arab people look forward to the support of all those who believe in the dignity of man and his freedom in the world.

Article 18: The liberation of Palestine, from an international point of view, is a defensive action necessitated by the demands of self-defense. Accordingly the Palestinian people, desirous as they are of the friendship of all people, look to freedom-loving, and peace-loving states for support in order to restore their legitimate rights in Palestine, to re-establish peace and security in the country, and to enable its people to exercise national sovereignty and freedom.

Article 19: The partition of Palestine in 1947 and the establishment of the state of Israel are entirely illegal, regardless of the passage of time, because they were contrary to the will of the Palestinian people and to their natural right in their homeland, and inconsistent with the principles embodied in the Charter of the United Nations, particularly the right to self-determination.

Article 20: The Balfour Declaration, the Mandate for Palestine, and everything that has been based upon them, are deemed null and void. Claims of historical or religious ties of Jews with Palestine are incompatible with the facts of history and the true conception of what constitutes statehood. Judaism, being a religion, is not an independent nationality. Nor do Jews constitute a single nation with an identity of its own; they are citizens of the states to which they belong.

Article 21: The Arab Palestinian people, expressing themselves by the armed Palestinian revolution, reject all solutions which are substitutes for the total liberation of Palestine and reject all proposals aiming at the liquidation of the Palestinian problem, or its internationalization.

Article 22: Zionism is a political movement organically associated with international imperialism and antagonistic to all action for liberation and to progressive movements in the world. It is racist and fanatic in its nature, aggressive, expansionist, and colonial in its aims, and fascist in its methods. Israel is the instrument of the Zionist movement, and geographical base for world imperialism placed strategically in the midst of the Arab homeland to combat the hopes of the Arab nation for liberation, unity, and progress. Israel is a constant source of threat vis-a-vis peace in the Middle East and the whole world. Since the liberation of Palestine will destroy the Zionist and imperialist presence and will contribute to the establishment of peace in the Middle East, the Palestinian people look for the support of all the progressive and peaceful forces and urge them all, irrespective of their affiliations and beliefs, to offer the Palestinian people all aid and support in their just struggle for the liberation of their homeland.

Article 23: The demand of security and peace, as well as the demand of right and justice, require all states to consider Zionism an illegitimate movement, to outlaw its existence, and to ban its operations, in order that friendly relations among peoples may be preserved, and the loyalty of citizens to their respective homelands safeguarded.

Article 24: The Palestinian people believe in the principles of justice, freedom, sovereignty, self-determination, human dignity, and in the right of all peoples to exercise them.

Article 25: For the realization of the goals of this Charter and its principles, the Palestine Liberation Organization will perform its role in the liberation of Palestine in accordance with the Constitution of this Organization.

Article 26: The Palestine Liberation Organization, representative of the Palestinian revolutionary forces, is responsible for the Palestinian Arab people's movement in its struggle - to retrieve its homeland, liberate and return to it and exercise the right to self-determination in it - in all military, political, and financial fields and also for whatever may be required by the Palestine case on the inter-Arab and international levels.

Article 27: The Palestine Liberation Organization shall cooperate with all Arab states, each according to its potentialities; and will adopt a neutral policy among them in the light of the requirements of the war of liberation; and on this basis it shall not interfere in the internal affairs of any Arab state.

Article 28: The Palestinian Arab people assert the genuineness and independence of their national (wataniyya) revolution and reject all forms of intervention, trusteeship, and subordination.

Article 29: The Palestinian people possess the fundamental and genuine legal right to liberate and retrieve their homeland. The Palestinian people determine their attitude toward all states and forces on the basis of the stands they adopt vis-a-vis to the Palestinian revolution to fulfill the aims of the Palestinian people.

Article 30: Fighters and carriers of arms in the war of liberation are the nucleus of the popular army which will be the protective force for the gains of the Palestinian Arab people.

Article 31: The Organization shall have a flag, an oath of allegiance, and an anthem. All this shall be decided upon in accordance with a special regulation.

Article 32: Regulations, which shall be known as the Constitution of the Palestinian Liberation Organization, shall be annexed to this Charter. It will lay down the manner in which the Organization, and its organs and institutions, shall be constituted; the respective competence of each; and the requirements of its obligation under the Charter.

Article 33: This Charter shall not be amended save by [vote of] a majority of two-thirds of the total membership of the National Congress of the Palestine Liberation Organization [taken] at a special session convened for that purpose.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From Leila S. Kadi (ed.), Basic Political Documents of the Armed Palestinian Resistance Movement, Palestine Research Centre, Beirut, December 1969, pp. 137-141.

Basically after reading this do you think they want to peacefully co-exist with Isreal?

"Nor do Jews constitute a single nation with an identity of its own " and "The Palestinian Arab people assert the genuineness and independence of their national (wataniyya) revolution and reject all forms of intervention " and "Zionism an illegitimate movement, to outlaw its existence, and to ban its operations".


The PLO does not wish to peacfully exist with Isreal and it says so in its charter.


The PLO is interested in one thing and one thing only- The Extermination of Isreal and the Jews. This is intolarble and in effect is Genocide. They have the Gall to call Isreal a terrorist state while blowing up Isreali children in Pizza pallors and discos.

The Taliban is so severe that Iran critcizes it for being to extreme. They don't allow women to be educted and have a law with the pentalties for educating women, they don't allow women to drive and have severe penalties for giving women rides in cars, don't allow any type of receation, have banned flying kites, is attempting genocide, Have banned TV and Radio, Have banned just about everything modern.

They are in short insane.

[agent vivid]

> "Those who profess to favor freedom, and yet deprecate agitation, are
> men who want crops without plowing up the ground. They want rain
> without thunder and lightning. They want the ocean without the awful
> roar of its waters. This struggle may be a moral one; or it may be a
> physical one; or it may be both moral and physical; but it must be a
> struggle! Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never did, and
> it never will. Find out just what people will submit to, and you have
> found out the exact amount of injustice and wrong which will be imposed
> upon them; and these will continue until they are resisted with either
> words or blows, or with both. The limits of tyrants are prescribed by
> the endurance of those whom they oppress."

> --Frederick Douglass, August 4, 1857.

[LLDENTAL]

Originally posted by James Bond
Americans,
The time has come to show to the world the real meaning of the word christian. Forgive the terorists, release the arested people if any, do not seek vengance, do not hunt down O.bin Laden. Pull the troops from the midle East, all military personal, jurnalists, american people working in thouse countries, get the guys back home. Declare that the USA will not interfere with any international problems anymore, provide only medical help and suplies.

I think this is what USA should do,

MAKE LOVE, NOT WAR..

James Bond

Congradulations James Bond! By saying what you just said, <this type of personal attack is not accepted on these forums.>
[Edited by david petley on 09-14-2001 at 10:08 PM]

[agent vivid]

lldental

please do not make personal attacks... flaming isn't allowed here

[TYPEX]

Originally posted by jaredigital
If no one fought back against evil people, they would rule the Earth.

is that what God wants? for all mankind to live under the shadow of fear and death?

i would think not.

we should not harbor hatred for whoever did this, but we can't be expected to do nothing about it. if it means that we have to kill to ensure this does not happen again to us OR to other nations, then kill we must.

it is better for the wicked few to die than for the whole world to suffer.

in conjunction

evil may never be completely eradicated but we must try. if people did not beleive in the evil of slavery then slavery would still exist. it took a war to prove it and it will take many wars to fight againts terrorists, but it must be done.