::Business vs. Web-Development::

[::D17::D17::]

Hello people,
I'm manager and skilled programmer working as a leader of the mid-size web-development group. I'm long time in the branche, so there were lot's of things that surprissed me, but now there is another one that makes me really sick. We worked for lot's of customers all around the world. My words are intended only against those who are mentioned as those with low quality of provided service and other bad features.
In the past we were very happy, because there were lot's of deals and many customers from the whole world, we developed lot's of projects and our company was raising. In that time I have read somewhere that in the countries, such as India, Russia, a.s.o. there is growing community of the IT specialists with degree and that they are talented, ....and all those words you have surely read or heard too. Nowadays we have on big problem. Almost on every virtual market place, such as e-Lance, there grown community of "cheap-workers" who are freelancers and are bidding on "everything what moves" on the marketplaces. Most of them are 1-2 people teams and they are playing a dirty game with the buyers and with their peers too. As I have read in lot's of discussion forums, programmers are shouting, because theese "cheap-workers" are bidding unnnormaly low amounts of money, often confusing the buyer with it, because we all want the lowest price possible.

But the problem is :
1. Why they are cheating and are claiming that they can provide the service on high-level although we all have read lot's of critics about the quality of their CHEAP work.
2. Where they left the necessary dynamic?(If the buyer wants something to change during the development process, their 1-2 people teams aren't dynamic enough to achieve all the tasks before the deadline)
3. Where they left the clearly defined development process - most of them even don't know any of its basics. Something like detailed quotation, software/graphics development with thorough testings, code documentation, enhanced development methods such as FuseBox, project documentation and manuals, and so on, and so on....!!!
4. Where will this go in 1-2 years? Will there be only group of bogus producing low-quality software for $5 per hour of work?

I have strong group of developers, graphic designers, flash gurus who are ready to work here. We don't have the lowest price - we work for $30-$40 per hour of work, but we think this is the real price for the high-quality work we deliver. Just take a look at the spectrum of services we provide, to think about our skills and experience and to see we are no newbies:

- 2D/3D graphic design, logo creation, design manuals development
- multimedia : Flash(on-line entertainment, games, dynamic Flash content, ...), ShockWave, 2D/3D animation, music composing/mixing/production
- IT consulting, recomendations and analyses
- technologies such as ASP, PHP
- databases like MS SQL, MS Access, MySQL
... and many more

I think that company like ours has enough power, knowledge and experience to run, but there are still fewer clients who always want to have unique high-quality products. We want and will work on the highest level we can, no matter what the situation is. And I hope we will find enough clients requesting real quality at the good price for their web-sites.

Sincerely, Kamil SZALAY

[nocrapchurch]

Kamil,

I think your frustration is shared by most web professionals. I too have been outbid by the guy willing to work for damn near nothing.

I've heard that there are groups in India and Russia, but there are groups here in the States too. They're usually kids who just stole a copy of some program off of a warez site. Not only did they not pay for the software, but they don't pay bills anywhere, and they work for peanuts. Then we're all supposed to compete against them.

It is dirty and it is horrible. And we're all hurting because of it.

But I do see a light at the end of the tunnel.

This same thing actually happens in pretty much all industries. One good example would be cars. I know where I could go and find the cheapest car. But we have a name for cars like these - lemons.

That's what people are usually getting when they hire groups like you've described. They are getting lemon web design. Its cheap, fast, and it may work --> But where's the warranty and where's the developers down the road? A lot of clients are learning the hard way.

Lawyers have made careers off chasing after people who sell lemon cars because there are so many of them. Maybe they can start chasing the lemon web developers.

I do see in the future that people will start to catch on that they will really need to check the background of someone that is going to handle their site:

-What have they done before?
-How long have they been around?
-Who were they're previous clients?
-What did the clients have to say about them?
-Have those clients returned for more work?

There needs to be some sort of standard set that web deveopers/companies are going to need to follow when they promote their services. And people are just going to need to start using common sense when hiring people. If it sounds too good to be true, then it probably is.

You can go to the car dealership that prides itself on customer service and has been around for 50 years - or you can go to the one down the road that has great sayings like "YOU'LL NEVER FIND A BETTER DEAL ON A CAR!!!!!!!" and "EVERYTHING MUST GO TODAY!!!!!!!!!!!!"

-scott
http://scottmanning.com/

[RazoRmedia]

you can't stereotype a whole group of people in this way, its unfair to the designers and developers out there who have been made redundant and have to freelance, sometimes lowering their prices as they have got kids to feed and can't afford to be picky.

There is a complete web depression on at the moment, to put it simply, supply and demand is reversed, theres too much supply and not enough demand.

There are thousands of graduates leaving universitites / colleges every year and having no jobs to go into, they have to make a living and they have a choice between going it alone or changing their career paths totally. Its not rosy for these people, have you ever tried getting a job with no commercial experience behind you? Ever been in the job market and found that no-one is going to give you a break?

What people seem to forget is that this is a business. People compete against each other in every single aspect in this world, web development is the same. I have a friend who was made redundant a year ago, he applied for hundreds of jobs but every interview he got, he discovered the money and hours were appaling, basically the firms were robbing them blind because they knew they could. He has now gone it alone with a few of his previous colleagues and is doing very well. He undercuts his main competitors because he has less overheads.

Now answer me this, is the quality of work any different if he is with a corporate company or not? The answer is no, the same work is being done, just with less overheads.

the people you talk about with low quality work, thats fair enough, kids with computers messing about in their bedroom should not be entering the freelance market and bidding for jobs, any respectable client can see right through them and will go elsewhere, maybe paying a lot more but they will get quality, not a load of animated gifs and a midi soundtrack.

just a few points too:

But the problem is :
1. Why they are cheating and are claiming that they can provide the service on high-level although we all have read lot's of critics about the quality of their CHEAP work.

I work for a reputable UK design company and we charge a lot of money per hour. I also do a bit of freelance, which I charge much less for per hour. this is because the freelance is in my spare time, I have less overheads. The quality of work is the same, its all my work, either corporate or freelance. Please don't get mixed up between rubbish work and cheap work.

2. Where they left the necessary dynamic?(If the buyer wants something to change during the development process, their 1-2 people teams aren't dynamic enough to achieve all the tasks before the deadline)

This is up to the client. I believe teams of a small number of people can be even more dynamic. If in my freelance work, the client asks for an amendment, i say 'no problem' and carry out the amendment. if the same happens in work, the client speaks to the project manager and requests the amendment. The project manager then speaks to me or my colleagues inquiring about timescales, complexity etc. Gets back to the client and then starts the whole process of an amendment sign off sheet. Once this sheet is received back, only then does the amendment happen. Dynamic?

3. Where they left the clearly defined development process - most of them even don't know any of its basics. Something like detailed quotation, software/graphics development with thorough testings, code documentation, enhanced development methods such as FuseBox, project documentation and manuals, and so on, and so on....!!!

For large websites, this is fair enough, you need proper planning and a complete procect lifecycle to follow, starting from analysis and feasibility studies right through the design and implementation to the maintenance of the site. But for most of the projects on e-lance and the like this is complete tosh.

Design me a small flash movie / make me a new company logo. If you followed the same administration for simple tasks like these, you'd be doing about 10% actual work and 90% paperwork, its unneccesary. I use sites like these because I can do the work to a high standard and I can do it fast. i have never had a complaint about my work and if I did, i would do everything in my power to sort the problem out.
My company does not use sites like this because they are for freelancers and people with less overheads. Instead they have built up their reputation and now get invitations to tender.

4. Where will this go in 1-2 years? Will there be only group of bogus producing low-quality software for $5 per hour of work?

yes and No. There will always be freelancers charging less than large design agencies. Decent clients with cash to spend wouldn't touch freelancers with a barge pole, they want full consultation, and the knowledge that their new website is in safe and professional hands. Smaller clients wanting things on the cheap will use freelancers and may strike it lucky and get a decent one with real skills. they may not and get a right muppet with the animated gifs site. Needless to say, the next time they will use professionals.



Anyway, e-lance and others like it were set up as freelancers sites, its fair to say that freelancers could have a complaint about companies coming in on their marketplace and stealing their clients!

What a lot of people forget is that this is a business. You do not have the right to a certain type or amount of clients, you bid for them, you gain their respect, you battle for a good client.

Do you think MacDonalds would complain about Sandwich shops or hamburger stalls if their sales were down? No, they would introduce a new promotion, they would try and regain the customers they have lost.

What I am trying to say is that designers / developers, cheap or expensive, good or bad, are all competeting against each other. If you're work is better than others, you'll get the contract. If others are cheaper than you with the same quality, they will get the contract.

Its a business and all is fair in business. The world does not owe anyone a living.

These are my opinions and are aimed at everyone on these boards Kamil, not just yourself. I hope you do not find any offense with my words, this was not my aim.

I look forward to hearing everyone elses opinions.

[RazoRmedia]

Originally posted by nocrapchurch
You can go to the car dealership that prides itself on customer service and has been around for 50 years - or you can go to the one down the road that has great sayings like "YOU'LL NEVER FIND A BETTER DEAL ON A CAR!!!!!!!" and "EVERYTHING MUST GO TODAY!!!!!!!!!!!!"

Exactly Scott,

theres always going to be a market for people looking for reliable cars with extended warrantys and a great part ex price.

Theres always going to be a market for people looking for a cheap runaround for the wife!

[aoneproductions]

Wow, this is probably one of the most interesting, informative and at the same time confusing posts I've ever seen on the boards. I'm active duty coast guard and i go to school part time for multimedia design so flash is just a hobby for me but I'm looking more and more into a way to make some extra money from it. I checked out elance.com but was a bit leary for alot of the reasons you mentioned. First big one is the legal issues because I'm running a student copy of flash and as we all know making money off of that would be illegal. Second, the quality of my work leaves alot to be desired and I have no commercial experience. But, I think what plays a big part in all this is what the customer wants. For example someone like me would be just fine doing work for a small business site, personal site or something or that nature. Someone who doesn't want a big production. I used to draw caricatures with a friend and an old boss of mine and our main competition was a larger group who had established a name for themselves and had quite a few artists. After a few small gigs we started to get recognized because our prices were significantly lower and we didn't give the client the big business runaround. We had only a few small clients and had a more personal relationship whereas the larger company treated there clients more like a number than a person. I do have no respect for people who sell crap work at quality work prices because alot of clients really have no clue what they're looking at. To them, if it looks ok it's worth the price, and it's easy to snag a job preying on the uninformed. I really think both sides have a place in this business though, like I said before it all depends on what the customer wants.

[OddDog]

i do respect the guy that sells a crap work for quality price

this has always bben around. McDonalds comes to mind. and a whole load of other world wide corps.

[nocrapchurch]

Originally posted by OddDog
this has always bben around. McDonalds comes to mind. and a whole load of other world wide corps.

But there is a main difference between burgers and websites. Burgers don't require maintenance and updates, etc. I don't think this is a valid comparrison. A website is with you until you change it. A burger is gone in sixty seconds (or thirty depending on the size of the burger and the size of the person).

Also, the difference in price for a better burger isn't that much. McDonald's is like a buck or something; a burger at a nice restaraunt may run up to ten or fifteen dollars.

One last thing, everyone knows that McDonalds is the quick, cheap way to eat. There's no question that if you spent more money elsewhere, then you'd get something better. Thus, there is no deception or a letdown for the customer.

But some car dealerships and development groups advertise that they are the best, cheapest, and will always be there for maintenance, etc. Then they don't pull through.

See what I'm saying? What do you think?

-scott
http://scottmanning.com/

[[-S|NiStEr_MiNd-]]

My opinion of this is short and should pretty much sum it up...

Time will weed out the bad and provide the grounds for the professinals to expand the way they should.

[Eyenovation]

A few more points to consier:

#1 - $5 an hour in a third world country, is ALOT of money. Obviously in the USA or the UK, its nothing special. But to someone who might make $.08 an hour making Nike Shoes.. $5 is doing okay.


#2 - When comparing burgers to website, you are talking about homogeneous products vs. heterogeneous. Meaning, the website is custom and NOT something massed produced like a McDonald's burger. Design is much different.

I think vindication will come when clients who try to go bargain get sh1t work and then face the consequences of blowing their advertising budget on rubbish..

[OddDog]

this is market forces guys.


in india you get good, well qualified IT pros working for 15 to 20K USD. Microsoft is a large employer of these people. They provide a QUALITY product at a much lower price than a western pro can do it for. It is that simple. So what you have to do is figure out how to postion yourself to not get swept up in this global phenominum.

personally, i kept trying to learn new skills (one of the major reasons why i love this job) and at present am learning Director 8.5. When flash MX comes out will learn that to.

I am betting my future on the shockwave player becoming more widely implemented in the next 2 years, and then being positioned to provide the next level to my small and SLOWLY expanding client base.

[OddDog]

hummm....

my comment on the shockwave player got no response

....hummmmm

[swampy]

My opinion is that we were all too damn gredy during the dot com boom, we are now reaping the consequences as the market value of our work fluctuates and finds the right level.