Dreamweaver

**kornp** · 05-12-2002, 04:28 PM

I'm am also a seasoned Dreamweaver hater. I haven't tried MX yet, maybee it's better, but the ammount of control you can get with notepad etc over dreamweaver etc is phenominal. I use nothing but a simple text editor (notepad usually) for my HTML. The really big thing that turned me off was a project I had to do where I was exporting word documents as html, then trying to clean them up in Dreamweaver. Key word there being TRYING...the project ended up taking like four times as long as it should of because Dreamweaver killed half of the HTML word made. I've never used the program since. NOTEPAD ALL THE WAY!

**le_saut** · 05-12-2002, 09:11 PM

Word has some very strange 'coding' practices, it's a wp not a html editor. Like using Access as a web based database system. yurrrgghhh.

I'm sure Word throws the good ol Fp HTML in there as well.

As for 'clean up spaghetti code' - it's like they are admitting a problem exists with their prog by putting this in. Why not just get it right in the 1st place?

When I hand code I get to have more time eating spag-bol rather then worrying about cleaning it up.

I recommend PHPEd as a coder for anything: PHP ASP/Vb, JSP, JS, HTML, CSS, C , sql whatever...
For html it has tag and quote/bracket completion. So when you type in <td> for instance it'll automatically do </td> for you. Also does this on ( and " ...

Other advantages are that it's project based (switch between projects easily). Also has built in FTP and a PHP server.

No spell checker, which makes me a good speller.

Other good coders are codeEdit, phpEdit and ultraEdit.

rgds

James

**Musicman** · 05-12-2002, 09:24 PM

Hi James,

now that you bring up this subject...
I believe making IE render the broken html that FP and word are generating took at least ten times as much effort as fixing those generators would have required. But it was part of the browser war: "look here, IE can display these pages, and netscape cannot. So change..."

Musicman

**le_saut** · 05-12-2002, 09:55 PM

Woww, I didn't know MS was so good and Mozilla was so rubbish..

Just goes to show the forces behind the current User Agent balance, nothing to do with what's good or not. Woops just started a UA war.

Check out my post in the Mozilla evaluation thread (boardroom) for some stats.

James

**longy** · 05-13-2002, 07:40 AM

dream weaver user here, even though I sometimes handcode, dw lets you see as you create whats going on frontend, even if your using the split screen option to hand code your still getting a nice updated view of your html page, plus its about 10x faster than handcoding and many people have already said time is money!!! more time on other jobs, more time looking for new clients!

**RazoRmedia** · 05-13-2002, 08:11 AM

sorry but what???

each to their own, the people slagging dreamweaver here seem to have been unable to use it,

look at this code it chucked out.

It doesn't chuck any code out, the user has created that code by performing actions.

A tool is only as powerful as the knowledge of the user. In case anyone hasn't noticed, dreamweaver 4 has 3 little icons on the top left to switch between wysiwyg, half and half and coding view, i spend a lot of time in coding view but for creating complex tables, you need to see what you're doing.

the ability to turn layers into tables is fantastic, I can create complex nested tables in seconds, try that in notepad.

I believe the people using notepad are simple home users, it simply would not stand up in a professional environment. Try creating a site with over 400 pages and then implementing a change on all those pages. in notepad, it may take hours, in dw, I simply amend a library item and it will update the whole site for me.

templates save even more time

What about broken links? thing of the past with dreamweaver, if I move a file or rename a file within dw, it will amend any links to that file.

if you go for a job (at least here in UK), they will ask if you can code html in notepad, they are asking this to find out if you know HTML well, not because its a quality tool, it is not used, time is money.

so for messing about at home or with your own freelance stuff, use notepad and good luck to you but if you're looking for a professional web designers role, they'll laugh at you notepad users and ask why you can't remove all orphaned content in less than 3 minutes.

Thanks for listening......

**bobobaggins** · 05-13-2002, 09:09 AM

Originally posted by RazoRmedia

Thanks for listening...... [/B]

we come from far and wide to listen to you oh obi wan

**RazoRmedia** · 05-13-2002, 09:12 AM

Originally posted by bobobaggins
we come from far and wide to listen to you oh obi wan

thanks chuck

**le_saut** · 05-13-2002, 10:02 AM

Originally posted by RazoRmedia
each to their own, the people slagging dreamweaver here seem to have been unable to use it,
•As I said earlier, you should use the tool you feel most comfortable with and the one that helps you get the job done quickly.
I personally find it easier to belt out code in PHPed,as most of my sites are dynamically generated.
You should read my post earlier of what DW automatically does to PHP code.

It doesn't chuck any code out, the user has created that code by performing actions.

•I'm sorry but it does. in the middle of nowhere, numerous 's that appear, 15 <td></td> tags because it ineptly splits and combines rowspans and colspans.

A tool is only as powerful as the knowledge of the user. In case anyone hasn't noticed, dreamweaver 4 has 3 little icons on the top left to switch between wysiwyg, half and half and coding view, i spend a lot of time in coding view but for creating complex tables, you need to see what you're doing.
•My handcoder, PHPEd, has this nifty thing called HTML preview tab, sort of like a 'browser window'.
If I don't want to use that I can preview (by using the refresh button), wait for it, in my browser of choice which is open, wait for it, at the same time as my coding prog.

the ability to turn layers into tables is fantastic, I can create complex nested tables in seconds, try that in notepad.
•yep that bit's pretty good I admit and I like it, but try and do table layouts with data populated from databases and cells rendered from for and while conditionals in DW or FP or whatever.
Also is it quicker to type this
<link rel="stylesheet" href="css/styles.css" type="text/css"> rather than click around and search for your css file? Time is money....

I believe the people using notepad are simple home users,...
•Wrong, much too generalistic matey. I hope Mark Fennell isn't reading this, I remember him saying at FK01 that FK was handcoded, and not to beat my drum but look at http://www.clairol.com.au and http://www.astro-optical.com.au for sites I've backended and fully developed respectively by hand coding. Not your home user!
(although my main office is at home, what being one of those dirty freelancers that works for other co's.) Gotta have a base somewhere.

...it simply would not stand up in a professional environment. Try creating a site with over 400 pages and then implementing a change on all those pages. in notepad, it may take hours, in dw, I simply amend a library item and it will update the whole site for me.
•There is actually a great little function in PHP called an include (ASP and JSP also have it) whereby common sitewide code can be included for reuse over and over and over again.
As you say, I only have to change one thing and it updates the whole site!!!!

...templates save even more time
•sure do, that's why I have my own hand coded templates ready to be slotted in and filled with dynamic data.
For instance, if I want to use a mail form in a site, I'll just include the common one I use everywhere, don't even have to code it again apart from extra inputs and different addy's.

...What about broken links? thing of the past with dreamweaver, if I move a file or rename a file within dw, it will amend any links to that file.
•not heard of dynamically generating links from database data? eg having one script filled with data depending on what the user requested. I could create a whole site in one page doing that!

...if you go for a job (at least here in UK), they will ask if you can code html in notepad, they are asking this to find out if you know HTML well, not because its a quality tool, it is not used, time is money.
•Yep, and if you hand code then more often than not you can use DW or FP or Homesite etc if forced. But rarely do I see wysiwydg 'coders' going the other way. Try and get a DW user to actually code and understand (very important) cleaner versions of DW js functions.
At one of my contracts I was called into regularly to help out when Dreamweaver problems occurred. Why is it doing that? was the common question. Why won't it let me do this? another.
Spending a half hour decoding the weird Javascript it churned out (because a designer was using DW JS functions) really did add to the time spent on project. As you say time is money.

so for messing about at home or with your own freelance stuff, use notepad and good luck to you but if you're looking for a professional web designers role, they'll laugh at you notepad users and ask why you can't remove all orphaned content in less than 3 minutes.
•If a site has dynamically generated link from db data, it'll be very rare to have orphaned pages as there are usually only a few that handle all the content. Take a look at the FK boards and count how many different php pages there are. Not much chance of orphaned pages there.

Thanks for listening......
•Yep, thanks for listening to me too.

That's the longest post I've ever done here.
Isn't it good to have a place where we can discuss our views openly and freely? I like it.

best regards

James

**pfkmedia** · 05-13-2002, 10:31 AM

What got me into dreamweaver? About 2 years ago before I started my own business. I had two interviews with 2 big comapnies here in tampa. They loved my work, thought i was very creative. Wanted to hire me. Until...

I told them I didnt know dreamweaver. I said it with pride too. I dont need no damn wysiwyg. So here i am today 2 years later. running my own 2 person company. Its okay but it would be nice to have money guranteed. But anyway...

Once I started using dreamweaver I couldnt stop. I realized why they hired someone else over me for such a simple program. It saves hours of time which can be used to make more money.

DW simplifies the design process. And helps greatly with the site management process. Personaly, If it wasnt for progs such as dreamweaver I dont think there would be as many freelancers/small companies doing development work for the time spent on projects would really get up there. Hence the price would go up, therefore alot of small businesses would not be able to afford such work, hence alot of freelancers wont have no work. Hence the chicken or the egg.

Did freelance work pick up after dw or was it always as lucrative? (using lucrative very loosley).

**RazoRmedia** · 05-13-2002, 10:45 AM

le_saut, you make several good points but all your theories fall back on dynamic content. Some sites simply don't (can't) use dynamic content due to time and budget constraints and are strictly html.

My colleague is an ASP programmer and although he has a copy of Ultradev, he will never use it because of some of the problems it can create. He hand codes in Interdev although on a large site he'll use my copy of dreamweaver to amend multiple pages, search all the source code etc.

I cannot talk about PHP because I do not understand it as well as you, my knowledge is limited but my previous post was talking mainly about HTML sites.

I understand you can do fantastic things with PHP and other server side languages but when time and budget are limited, sometimes you simply cannot use dynamic content, you need to rely on strict HTML. I hate to quote your quotes about my quotes but here goes:

You should read my post earlier of what DW automatically does to PHP code.
Dreamweaver is not really designed for PHP, although it may be able to handle it, its not ideal. Flash 5 could export quicktime movies but it wasn't the best product that could.

about chucking code out - I'm sorry but it does. in the middle of nowhere, numerous 's that appear, 15 <td></td> tags because it ineptly splits and combines rowspans and colspans.
you shouldn't merge and split table cells then. Just like if you were coding by hand, you would start creatigg tables simple and functional, merging and splitting, although works, makes for messy code. You must be doing something wrong with tags appearing, they don't in my code.

My handcoder, PHPEd, has this nifty thing called HTML preview tab, sort of like a 'browser window'.
If I don't want to use that I can preview (by using the refresh button), wait for it, in my browser of choice which is open, wait for it, at the same time as my coding prog.
same here mate, browser window open and refresh or u can simply hit F12 anywhere in Dreamweaver to test it in your primary browser window (CTRL + F12 for secondary browser)

yep that bit's pretty good I admit and I like it, but try and do table layouts with data populated from databases...
fair enough, dreamweavers pants for dynamic content, I'll give you that

I hope Mark Fennell isn't reading this, I remember him saying at FK01 that FK was handcoded
It started out that way, great isn't it?

and not to beat my drum but look at http://www.clairol.com.au and http://www.astro-optical.com.au for sites I've backended and fully developed
very nice, clean good looking sites. Hand coded or not, they are a credit to you, the designer. My point is if they were done in Dreamweaver, they would be just as nice. As we have both mentioned, each to their own, if you prefer hand coding, so be it, I was attacking the people who were blatantly slagging dreamweaver when it was clear they did not really have a clue. You have posted nice sites here, I could post sites we have done in dreamweaver and we could try and find errors with each others but that would be pointless, each to their own.

There is actually a great little function in PHP called an include
(DHTML too), usefull isn't it?

not heard of dynamically generating links from database data?
yep but for a client who's only willing to pay a grand, he's not getting any backend is he?

Try and get a DW user to actually code and understand (very important) cleaner versions of DW js functions.
bit stereotypical isn't it? I used notepad to learn HTML and then dumped it when I found better tools. I used to use one called Hot metal pro or something similar but that was woeful and I discovered Dreamweaver. Just because I use it doesn't mean I cannot understand HTML and Javascript. Most Dreamweaver users will spend more time in the code window than the wysiwyg window. That generic comment is like saying everyone who uses flash doesn't understand functionality.

If a site has dynamically generated link from db data, it'll be very rare to have orphaned pages as there are usually only a few that handle all the content. Take a look at the FK boards and count how many different php pages there are. Not much chance of orphaned pages there.
flashkit is dynamic, as mentioned before, dreamweaver isn't the best for dynamic content

Yep, thanks for listening to me too.
If you've made it this far well done. I think we both have valid points, I am not neccesarily talking dynamic sites like you, I'm looking at the bigger picture, the web in general, more static sites etc. Its a debate that will be used over and over but come on, lets face it, notepad is crap for writing HTML. other hand coding packages are far superior but dreamweaver is one of the best.

anyway, back to work, nice post le_saut

**RazoRmedia** · 05-13-2002, 10:57 AM

Originally posted by Gloomycus
I'm a notepader. **** any and every WYSIWYG editor. Its for the truly lazy or those who can't handle the real deal and need a crutch to do anything.

oh shut up

**pete_the_weaver** · 05-13-2002, 10:59 AM

While writing clean, elegant code is certainly to be applauded and encouraged, there's nothing big or clever about hand coding when Dreamweaver can do a better job for big sites quicker. Most professional designers haven't got the time for html masturbation. Notepad crew - get off your high horses and get with the programme ;-)

**aversion** · 05-13-2002, 05:20 PM

Originally posted by RazoRmedia

Originally posted by Gloomycus
I'm a notepader. **** any and every WYSIWYG editor. Its for the truly lazy or those who can't handle the real deal and need a crutch to do anything.

oh shut up

lol, indeed

i use dreamweaver a lot and since dreamweaver mx came out i use it for php too, it's great for dynamic previews etc.

i agree that you shouldn't use anything you're not comfortable with, but i don't get people that say dw adds code to their stuff, i've never seen it do that, with html or php. It must be down to settings or a bug, which is fair enough.

by le saut

Try and get a DW user to actually code and understand (very important) cleaner versions of DW js functions

rubbish! i think you're under-estimating the abilities of dw users. Most pros i know that use dw still hand code most of it and never use MM javascript functions, and would have no trouble understanding or writing clean functions.

people don't use dreameaver so they don't have to know how to hand code!!! they use it because it's faster, the templates and site functions are great time savers, not to mention the table generation etc.

I know you addressed the fact that you have your own templates made up but the thing about dw templates is that once you associate them with a page any changes you make to the template can be ported to all or some of the pages created from that template. It's like css for structure.

it's not a crutch, or an excuse, it's just a tool.

**le_saut** · 05-13-2002, 06:33 PM

sometimes you simply cannot use dynamic content, you need to rely on strict HTML.

All my sites are hosted on Apache or variants, they all have PHP installed. Sometimes I may do one that has 90% html but every now and then I'll put in some PHP
<?
echo $date date("F Y");
//echoes May 2002
?>

I hate to quote your quotes about my quotes but here goes:

LAL.

Let's leave it at that, glad you liked the sites. Though I didn't do the design for clairol, just the backend port and Australian content.

I like the sitewide find and replace in Homesite. I'd get it just for that... (can't get DW to do it for non .htm pages).

rgds

James

**kornp** · 05-13-2002, 07:00 PM

Looks to me like a really big can of worms was opened here...different people are going to have different opinions about how to make their code, just because you believe something doesn't mean that everyone else should. Diversity is a wonderful thing.

(no offence is intended to anyone by this post, and please don't bite my head off

)

**deadbeat** · 05-13-2002, 07:21 PM

DW sucks...

BBEdit is the only way to go...

K.

**SubKloda** · 05-13-2002, 07:33 PM

Originally posted by kornp
Looks to me like a really big can of worms was opened here...different people are going to have different opinions about how to make their code, just because you believe something doesn't mean that everyone else should. Diversity is a wonderful thing.

(no offence is intended to anyone by this post, and please don't bite my head off )

Wait until someone says they use Word or FP for their html development... then the can will be open

...

IMO Dreamweaver is a great tool, but it seems that it doesn't suit everybody and really isn't suitable in some situations...

It's a pity no one's mentioned the ability to extend DW with your own objects and stuff.... these can be a real time-saver (assuming you've got the time to write them in the first place

).

cheers,
Andy

**SeaWolf** · 05-14-2002, 04:12 AM

I couldn't code in notepad if my life depended on it. At least in DW I can get a site up and running. I guess it's more of a "designer" as opposed to a "programmer" thing. Sure, I don't know the first thing about PHP or HTML or Perl or well you get my drift. Sure, a site I make (which have all been just practice sites anyways) may not be perfect and as pretty as your notepad coded site but I am having fun learning. Does this mean that now on top of learning Flash and DW that I now have to learn all of the programming stuff? Please tell me no. I am too old to try and figure out another profession (even though I am not a professional by any means.)
Late

**le_saut** · 05-14-2002, 04:37 AM

You may be interested in Homesite if you want to bridge the gap between DW and Coding progs. It's very good for what it does.

l_s

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