Will work for... FREE?

[serpent star]

Originally posted by johnie


I think what these guys, at least some of them, are upset about is people doing "Free" work that normally would go to a freelancer.

In this scenerio the client asks for the services for free on a contractual level and the client may or may not get a usable site and the designer doesn't get the experience of working within an orginization nor the ability to list the company as a reference. If the client gets a bad site they then trash the medium if they get a good site they typically will brag about the price thus making thier associates expect the same for the same price or for a much reduced price.

Hit the nail on the head.

[dissector]

Just a couple of points from my own experience. I have been approached in the last couple of months separately by 3 graphic designers just out of Uni who want to get into medical illustration and offered to do some work for me for free.

Okay, I thought, don't look a gift-horse in the mouth. They all had quite good portfolios so I spent a couple of days preparing some work for them to do. To cut a long story short none of them have come up with anything as yet. One of them even wants me to prepare diagrams to guide her as to what to do.

I can't argue with them because they don't owe me anything. If I get angry they'll just walk away.

And these are qualified professionals. I can't imagine what working with a 15 year old high school kid would be like (no offense to any 15 year olds reading this).

Moral of the story - I don't think people working for free is too much of a threat to the industry. Even if your work isn't that good, businesses will come to realise that if they don't pay there is a very high chance of the job not being done at all. They may not realise it now but the truth will out.

Websites should not be an alternative to another marketing technique but an integral part of a businesses strategy. Any business worth its salt is not going to shy away from using the web because of a bad experience. If they want to use the web in the first place it should be because its necessary and there is no alternative. If a business is paying you to design an online brochure or advert you should be doing it for free - because its not going to bring in any extra business for the company.

There is a place for interns - but they are exactly that - internal in the organisation. There's no such thing as a freelance intern (extern?) because without supervision they wouldn't do a bloody thing unless they were very highly motivated.

Chris

[chrisd9]

If it wasn't for the natural governance of the capitalistic market that allows for the offering of free services, then none of us would even have the chance to market/sale our services in the way we do every day. That is, if you want to be able to compete and convince people to use your services... you're going to have to do just that.

I disagree with taking such a view as seeing 15 year olds offering their services for free as such a monumental hit to the market of web design. As said earlier, it's not completely realistic to think that these random solicitations have any real effect.

However, regardless of that, if these kids were truly "stealing" your work "you should" be getting paid for... then so be it. You're service is not worth as much as you think it is, it's worth as much as the people who are paying for it think it is.

This type of complaint would be like 2advanced complaining about your rediculously low prices, because they want to charge their thousands. Obviously it works this way because the consumer sees 2advanced as that much better. It works the same between you and the kids who do it for free... because you are that much better... or are you? <-- only said to make the point...

fun thread = )

[pheck]

i agree with the chris-es.

one thing we seem to be forgetting is that clients are a lot smarter than we are giving them credit for. If they have some guy do their site for free, and they end up not liking it, or finding it hasn't given them any business, etc. etc. it doesn't follow that they would then turn around and say "the web doesn't work for us." Almost everyone has clicked around and seen what a good site and bad site is. Clients know that if they put $ into it, they'll get a good site that may bring them in even more $....but some are willing to see if the free site (with higher liklihood of 'crappiness') will do it for them first/anyway. No harm no foul.

[chrisd9]

Originally posted by pheck
i agree with the chris-es.

one thing we seem to be forgetting is that clients are a lot smarter than we are giving them credit for. If they have some guy do their site for free, and they end up not liking it, or finding it hasn't given them any business, etc. etc. it doesn't follow that they would then turn around and say "the web doesn't work for us." Almost everyone has clicked around and seen what a good site and bad site is. Clients know that if they put $ into it, they'll get a good site that may bring them in even more $....but some are willing to see if the free site (with higher liklihood of 'crappiness') will do it for them first/anyway. No harm no foul.

exactly... and even though that may suck, that's the way it is, and the way it needs to be. if this simple element of functionality of capitalism was taken away, everything would go to hel and we would have no chance to make money at all

producers and consumers need to be and are allowed to produce and consume in any way they so please... the producers job is to convince the consumer to consume in a favorable way to himself (himself being the producer... read that again, it does make sense = ))...

what it comes down to is there is nothing unethical about doing work for free... especially on such an individual level... and therefor, this should not be looked down upon...

keep in mind there are in fact two points of view to this, whether we (in this case, the producer) like it or not... the consumer wants us to be challenged by such obstacles the free work... it keeps the services they pay for (in theory) the highest quality possible...

given this, dont forget that we are all consumers of something (and many things)... what if the producer of that good/service could determine his compensation for what he is providing without having to worry about someone else doing it for cheaper.

[TheOriginalFlashDavo]

Unfortunately many clients do not know that at all. Think about it a little. You're right to a certain extent, a client who would agree to let an inexperienced and/or young "designer" do his site for free is not the kind to pay, say, 2advanced-type prices - agreed.

But the truth is that many small businesses that could actually be very well served by the web, with the type of business model that with the right advice and online strategy could grow very nicely indeed - without becoming any huge corporate - will try the "freebie" purely because they do not see the value in paying for the service. That's entirely what it boils down to: the percieved value.

Think about: why would you not pay some guy who knocked on your door $500 for that new garage extension you've been thinking about? Because you know you're going to get what you pay for - crap.

Unfortunately with design and website development it's not so easy for someone not very knowledgable about the web to understand that same thing. Everyone can understand about garages and such - we know it needs to be solid, waterproof...etc. Anyone could name at least 10 important elements probably. But what does a website need? The average Joe would have no idea (they may think they do, but in all reality they don't understand usability, site architecture, branding, download times, dynamic databases...etc). And unfortunely most people offering "freebies" will not know much more.

This is not about charging high prices or anything ike that, but it is about placing a real value onto a real service. If a potential client places no value onto a service then our industry is really going nowhere, and most of you guys hoping to break into it can forget about it.

Again, the emphasis is on the god for the industry in the long term. If this isn't an important part of it, then please tell me why every professional body I've heard of is also of this belief?

Cheers
Dave

[chrisd9]

Originally posted by TheOriginalFlashDavo
Unfortunately many clients do not know that at all. Think about it a little. You're right to a certain extent, a client who would agree to let an inexperienced and/or young "designer" do his site for free is not the kind to pay, say, 2advanced-type prices - agreed.

But the truth is that many small businesses that could actually be very well served by the web, with the type of business model that with the right advice and online strategy could grow very nicely indeed - without becoming any huge corporate - will try the "freebie" purely because they do not see the value in paying for the service. That's entirely what it boils down to: the percieved value.

Think about: why would you not pay some guy who knocked on your door $500 for that new garage extension you've been thinking about? Because you know you're going to get what you pay for - crap.

Unfortunately with design and website development it's not so easy for someone not very knowledgable about the web to understand that same thing. Everyone can understand about garages and such - we know it needs to be solid, waterproof...etc. Anyone could name at least 10 important elements probably. But what does a website need? The average Joe would have no idea (they may think they do, but in all reality they don't understand usability, site architecture, branding, download times, dynamic databases...etc). And unfortunely most people offering "freebies" will not know much more.

This is not about charging high prices or anything ike that, but it is about placing a real value onto a real service. If a potential client places no value onto a service then our industry is really going nowhere, and most of you guys hoping to break into it can forget about it.

Again, the emphasis is on the god for the industry in the long term. If this isn't an important part of it, then please tell me why every professional body I've heard of is also of this belief?

Cheers
Dave

...given this, the problem is not the fact that 15 year olds are offering the services for free... the problem is the ignorance of the consumer portion of the market...

let us keep in mind the purity of capitalism represented in web design... our field is in fact rare in that there is not yet (or ever will be?) a standard as far as paying for design services... therefor, mostly every job you pitch/sale is truly a result of that client deciding how much that service is with to their self. with such a small amount of other influences, this is truly pure capitalism.

... this is what allows you to overcharge a little when you truly impress a company with what you would be able to do for them

[serpent star]

Originally posted by chrisd9

This type of complaint would be like 2advanced complaining about your rediculously low prices, because they want to charge their thousands. Obviously it works this way because the consumer sees 2advanced as that much better.

<incoherent rant><way to tired>

The whole shoe on the other foot thing makes sense.

I think its a different situation though. 2A has the credentials to name their price. (obviously according to what the market will bear.

I don't know, it just seems like if you're not named named Van Gough your just a starving artist stuck selling elvis oil paintings on the side of a busy highway.

I hope not. But maybe thats the natural progression of things.

The middle falls out. Tuff realization.

<way to tired></incoherent rant>

[pheck]

davo

i'm tiring of your 'all the design agencies feel this way so it must be true' argument you keep posting in multiple threads. i've looked at those sites closely and what they say, and half of the statements you claim are backed by their policies is bologne. most recent example: your argument that auctions = free work. no where in any of those links have i seen any mention of the word auctions or any reference to this format.

furthermore, i'm not convinced these agencies are referring to the apprentice/novice/student/kid level. instead, i feel they are targeted to the industry and its designers. how desigers should interact with one another and with the client base is different than the first group mentioned. clearly there is something to be said for apprenticeships and the value they bring to the industry.

lastly, and i don't mean to be rude, but i don't appreciate how you're trying to come off as an authoritative voice. i happen to have a colleague i work with who has helped you with many projects over the past year or two, and has seen you develop from (i won't mention here) to what you are now: a darn good designer. i'm not saying i'm any sort of authority. in fact, i am most certainly not. just sharing my opinion like everyone else.

[gecko2]

This work for free subject is growing every time I visit these boards, mainly here in the boardroom. It's annoying how so many people want something for nothing, even worse when some "designer" says that they'll do it, or that they post just to say that they'll work for free. I came here today for the first time since Friday and already out of three threads I've looked at two of them are "Please work for free" types.

It's guaranteed that whenever somebody asks for something for free they then go on to say that their site is going to get shedloads of hits and money will be pouring in afterwards. Get real.

I find it offensive that people can ask for free work. I will not reply to any posts in any boards made by anyone who asks for free work, I keep a list of these offenders. In my eyes I see them as beggars, the same as the ones who sleep in doorways, except they've got a computer, for all I know these "cyber-beggars" probably live in doorways with their laptops.

Don't reply to them, they're just wasting everyone's time including their own.

[RazoRmedia]

I've not posted in this thread yet but I have been following it with interest.

I'm sorry, but as a web designer / developer, I really see no problem with free work in todays market.

As said before, the type of clients who ask for work for free don't understand the concept of an online presence and are the type of client who are not willing to raise much of a budget anyway. These clients are simply after a website or a flash movie or whatever for the sake of having one, they're not bothered about what it does / means for them, they simply see other companies (maybe their competitors) with a website and jump on the bandwagon, wanting one for as little or no money as possible.

These companies who ask for these free sites are only two bit companies themself and in my experience, the less professional the company, the worse the clients are.

People see fit to say that undercutting and giving away free work devalues our service, devalues what we do for a living, I think this is complete and utter garbage. I work full time and therefore never had much marketing experience but since I started taking on freelance work, I would say that 50% of it is pitching, talking and convincing clients. If you're working for yourself, the flash and HTML is the easy part, the hardest part is the client relation, keeping them sweet, good old fashioned customer care.

Recently, I attended a meeting for a client I have worked with for about 2 years building sites and flash movies / downloads. They wanted a small animated flash movie for which they would supply the 3DS model. I quoted them a price for my time (which was reasonable) and they said that they could get it done for £50 which was far less than I had quoted. I enquired as to where and they basically hinted of an employees college attending child. Fair enough I thought, I am not going to try and compete with that. I told them my offer would still stand in a months time.

A month later, they mailed me, attaching the 3DS model and asked me to do the work. I later found out that this college kid had botched it completely, giving them a flash movie that was about 8 meg and slower than Scott on a Monday morning.

The problem I see is not free work, because most of the clients, as said before, are crap, but the problem is with undercutting. So many designers on this board complain about being undercut by someone else or losing work to people who will charge half of what they do? I can see no problem with undercutting, if the client is happy with the quality of the cheaper work, who are we to say its wrong. Everyone refers to it as the web industry but we are businesses, we have no flat rate over the board, healthy competition is alive in all businesses, we cannot monopolise others because we think we are superior.

I believe we should all take a long hard look at our freelancing and our client relation skills and justify charging as much as we do. I feel quite happy with what I charge, I think its fair for the work I do and the service the client will receive.

Do we see Tony Novak from 2advanced on here *****ing that some snotty kid has stolen his work? No, we don't because he's in a different league, he rises above this and chooses clients to suit him.

Anyway, my views are different, I know lots of you disagree with me, but ask yourself this: Remember how hard it was when you first started out and no-one gave you a break? Its 100 times harder now, alls fair in business.

Bruce
(evil moderator from hell)

[RazoRmedia]

I've emailed Tony, hopefully he'll find time to post his views in here.

[XDCG]

TO all of you who oppose this work for FREE thing ..... have you ever heard of BARTERING? sometimes bartering can be much more helpful. It doesnt cramp our style as webmasters. Read up. The most succesful and wealthiest corporations bartered to start out with and still barter today. Just because you may have done the work for "free" doesn't always mean that it was. And besides, this isnt the only industry where there are people undercutting other people. SO use it as motivation to be better. In fact, this should make you say to yourself, "there will be a distinction between free work and real work". And 9 out of 10 times you can clearly see that distinction. So what is the quality of your work?? Does it look free?? Well then dont worry about it.

[Line]

I was let go on 9/12/2001 as a FLASH animator/web designer/toonist.

Previous to that I had worked for two companys developing sites for other companys, while teaching FLASH and HTML to coworkers.

All the while I would do a free site for someone to help continue to build my portfolio as back up in case something should ever happen.

Unfortunately It's now 6/17/2002 and I still don't have a job. My backup has failed but at least my portfolio continues to grow. I am still doing sites for free to help gain a network of clients who may help spread the word of my business.

Of course they may want work for free but I'm hoping some day I'll get someone who wants to pay.

I understand your point completely though.

Good luck in trying to get something done about it. If you find a paying client send them my way.

-Line

[XDCG]

Dude ... you sound as if you've lost all hope in the world. There are plenty of paying customers. I have 6 under my contracts now and more negotiating. The reason why you havent found any is because they can see that you've given up. You cant HOPE for a client to come and pay you, you have to sell them on the idea that they will get EXACTLY what they pay for. Or when all else fails ENTHUSIASM!!! will show them what they're buying. We are a very mucn NEEDED industry. We can get peoples businesses seen by more people than Television Ever will. You can even quote me on that the next time you pitch a client dude. Just be a bit stronger and dont let your client walk over your work and make you think they really dont need it, because the truth is they do and if they are serious about their business they will pay. If they arent serious about it, then chances are its a one shot deal and they probably wont have much work for you to do after the site is up anyway.

[Anna Banana]

Originally posted by XDCG
We can get peoples businesses seen by more people than Television Ever will. [/B]

Really? I never thought of it that way, maybe this should be an entirely different thread, but that quote intrigued me...Not at all doubting you or anything, but are there any studies or surveys I can refer to about it?

[ViperGeckoFreak]

i agree with RazoRmedia

[XDCG]

Originally posted by Anna Banana

Originally posted by XDCG
We can get peoples businesses seen by more people than Television Ever will.

Really? I never thought of it that way, maybe this should be an entirely different thread, but that quote intrigued me...Not at all doubting you or anything, but are there any studies or surveys I can refer to about it? [/B]

Actually Its a study i've been conducting myself. Television satelites may very well be able to reach millions and billions of people. But as long as you have your business on the web. It is accessible to those same billions of people 24 hours a day 7 days a week whereas a televeison ad will eventually go off in abot 30 seconds.

[RazoRmedia]

XDCG, Anna, this is interesting and I have several opinions which I would like to share, please start a new thread about it so that we can stay on topic in here. Cheers

[Anna Banana]

http://board.flashkit.com/board/show...hreadid=328062
[Edited by Anna Banana on 06-17-2002 at 10:14 AM]