A Flash Developer Resource Site

Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 68

Thread: [Resolved] [Resolved] [Resolved] [Resolved] [Resolved] [Resolved] [Resolved] [Resolved] [Resolved] [

  1. #21
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Posts
    13,041
    Netscape doesn't run Vbscript without a plugin
    What are the advantages of running vbscript? It seems if MS had not decided to hide some features of the browser from javascript, noone would ask for vbscript - at least netscape did show all the years that flash player detection can be made without vbscript
    On the other hand, certain accesses to system details through scripting may not really be the surfer's delight, like this one http://board.flashkit.com/board/show...hreadid=283979

    Musicman

  2. #22
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Location
    Sydney Australia
    Posts
    140
    Originally posted by Spizak
    Yes people use IE because it's there. But Netscape really does suck. They don't follow all the HTML rules with the release of 6 even after a slap on the hand from the W3C. It's slower and unstable. You can't make transparent flash movies because they don't work in Netscape. Netscape doesn't run Vbscript without a plugin. Don't even try using layers if you want them to display in the right spots in Netscape unless you want to spend double time testing each page. Trying to beat IE by refusing to incorporate these new standards will kill them. Netscape is simply limiting a designer's potential and creativity while increasing their frustration because of 4% of surfers. If you had to download one before you could surf the net, which would you choose?
    code a page properly to standards and it will appear you want it in standards compliant browsers...
    Code a page using code that only IE understands then it wont work in netscape... surprise!
    Microsoft, doesn't actually set the standards for the web... and N7 complies very well to the actual standards.

    It shouldn't matter which browser people use, but as long as people keep using non-standard tags, it will... so please everybody learn how to code properly!

    as for transparent flash, well I am not really gonna use this until it is supported for mac users anyway...


  3. #23
    Challenging Convention Andology's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2001
    Location
    Cyprus
    Posts
    152
    I must say I totally agree with crisward,

    "Is it just me, or isn't it easier to change the way a browser works instead of changing how the 32 million websites in the world work."

    No it's not just you mate, I agree, I personally don't even bother addressing the shitscape issues within my designs, first of all, I think crisward's "easier to change the way a browser works instead of changing how the 32 million websites in the world work" is so spot on, I resent having to double my workload, or half my work flow.. Personally, if they can't even manage to make tables render properly, they don't deserve to even offer a web browser, let alone have a market share, they have done themselves out of thier own market, it would be the equivilant of BMW designing a car that only worked on 'some' types of tarmacs, on other types, the car would spin off the road and crash, I wonder how many of those they would sell? or what about a Mobile phone from Nokia that wasnt able to recieve a text message properly, only 'some' types of text messages would work, others wouldnt, regardless of there being a GSM Network standard protocol "Ohh I've got a great idea, lets re-invent the F**king wheel!!!" Nobs.......

    I hate shitscape, they deserve to fail fail fail, die die die......

    Ha, feel better now......

    LOL

    Cheers

    Andy

  4. #24
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2000
    Posts
    5,087
    Originally posted by Spizak
    Yes people use IE because it's there. But Netscape really does suck. They don't follow all the HTML rules with the release of 6 even after a slap on the hand from the W3C. It's slower and unstable. You can't make transparent flash movies because they don't work in Netscape. Netscape doesn't run Vbscript without a plugin. Don't even try using layers if you want them to display in the right spots in Netscape unless you want to spend double time testing each page. Trying to beat IE by refusing to incorporate these new standards will kill them. Netscape is simply limiting a designer's potential and creativity while increasing their frustration because of 4% of surfers. If you had to download one before you could surf the net, which would you choose?
    Okay.

    First off NN is at 7.0 and not 6.0. It hasn't been at 6.0 for two or three years. SHould we compare IE from two or three years ago? NN 4.X?? Its was out around IE 3. Do0 you design for IE 3 still- No you do not. SO why are you comparing it instead of 7.0? I know you haven't used NN since 6.0 PR1 yet you are bashing it...

    Outside of you having a very out of date version of NN;

    Transparent flash movies;
    WMode is listed where in the W3C spec? Show me exactly where it is located at http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/ . Can't find it? Its becuase its not a standard.

    VBscript:


    What standards agancy maintains the standard for VBScript?

    Is it offered as a RAND.

    The Answer is it is not standard but is a propriatary scripting language used by MS and there isn't a RAND for it. VBScript is not standard.

    Not only is it not standard its a huge security risk and is often turned off.

    Layers- go here http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Test/ and test in NS 7.0 and IE 6 and then tell me which one complies better- Hint... It isn't IE.

    Hampering potential...

    If you want to use IE only features then ask yourself this.

    What is my goal here?

    If it is to reach the most people on the most platforms then don't use them. Follow the W3C recs and it will work on all modern browsers and should look about the same on all of them.

    If you want only to reach Windows and Mac users who surf in IE with all the Fancy features turned on then go ahead and use them but then don't complaign about the other browser being standards compliant as you decided to use a propriatary MS tag or language over the standard.


  5. #25
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Location
    Sydney Australia
    Posts
    140
    Originally posted by Andology
    I must say I totally agree with crisward,

    "Is it just me, or isn't it easier to change the way a browser works instead of changing how the 32 million websites in the world work."

    riiiight...
    um apparently the netscape people agreed too, because they through out all the non-standard stuff from NN4.7
    I don't suggest you code for NN4.7, or IE3.1
    But if you do code to the W3c standards then everyone is happy... of course if you want to stick with good ol' M$ IE specific code, well that is up to you... just keep looking at those browser stats!

  6. #26
    originally posted by Johnnie

    First off NN is at 7.0 and not 6.0. It hasn't been at 6.0 for two or three years. SHould we compare IE from two or three years ago? NN 4.X?? Its was out around IE 3. Do0 you design for IE 3 still- No you do not. SO why are you comparing it instead of 7.0? I know you haven't used NN since 6.0 PR1 yet you are bashing it...
    The official release of NN 6.0 was November 2000, 21 months ago. Comparing that with IE ath that time, we're between version 5.5B1 (Dec 1999) and version 5.5 Final Release. I think I can safely say that this version of IE was a very enjoyable browser to design for. If IE3 was still as popular as NN4, then this thread might be about this browser as well. However the stats at http://www.thecounter.com/stats/2002/August/browser.php suggest that IE 2 & 3 are even below NN3 as far as penetration goes. Netscape 4.x is 3rd on the list with 2% of the usage (IE5 is 1st with 49%, IE6 2nd with 41% - Hoorah!)

    As for having a very outdated version of NN, that's what this thread is about. I still test my sites on NN 4.7 (the buggiest browser of all time! http://www.richinstyle.com) and it still seems to be the NN browser with the most users on the web, despite the fact that netscape have released 2 new major versions! I guess that's why my business is being steadily pushed towards total flash based sites, removing any need for css/dhtml or other feasibly cross browser incompatible tags/scripts. Having said that, using flash opens up another can of worms all together!

  7. #27
    they call me the_jump... le_saut's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Posts
    536
    You can't make transparent flash movies because they don't work in Netscape.
    ..neither does Opera, neither does Mozilla, neither does IE for the Mac... it's a plugin thing not a netscape browser thing

    Netscape doesn't run Vbscript without a plugin.
    So what? Netscape compatible browsers run Javscript 1.x fine... why would you want to run VBscript in Netscape? Maybe IE shoudl support Javascript fully....

    rgds
    James


  8. #28
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Posts
    5
    LOL!! I gave up on NS a long time ago... about 3 years ago in fact. I'll never forget the phone call which ignited my decision to "abandon" NS.

    I was designing a simple search engine (frames, javascript, and graphics. Nothing special.)
    It's works exactly the way it was intended to work..in IE.

    Soon, I get calls from several users who are complaining about a blank page. So I eliminate the Javascript all together... Still a blank page. NS (Netrape) couldn't handle the frames!. Basic HTML! I get on the phone to Netscape. I ask them about this problem... (Now mind you. This was during the time they were suing Microsoft.) After about an hour of discussion with one of their programmers about these problems with Javascript and Frames, and about the loops us programmers have to jump thru to make NS users see our data AND design, he told me that NS couldn't run some javascript, and couldn't handle frames!

    Hmmm... Netscape had a phrase something like this: "Built on Java Technology" in their "About" dialog. LOL!!! I told the programmer to fix their browser and quit complaining about IE.

    That is when I quit running compatability tests on my webpages to support Netscape.

    By NS not conforming to "Standards", It's putting a damper in the growth and prosperity of the net. In my opinion, Netscape has held the industry back. If we were to waste our time with compatability in other industries that we depend on, we would still have horse drawn buggies slowing up Automobile traffic and steam engines in cars and kerosine lanterns in our bedrooms...etc.

    Just my thoughts and opinions on the matter. I support the the advancement of technology. I support the companies out there which invent new products and technologies to enhance our way of living.

    My Final word...

    If a company can't keep up with the current standards, then they should find a different product to sell.


  9. #29
    they call me the_jump... le_saut's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Posts
    536
    If a company can't keep up with the current standards, then they should find a different product to sell.
    Like..... Mozilla?

  10. #30
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2000
    Posts
    5,087
    Originally posted by wrench
    originally posted by Johnnie

    First off NN is at 7.0 and not 6.0. It hasn't been at 6.0 for two or three years. SHould we compare IE from two or three years ago? NN 4.X?? Its was out around IE 3. Do0 you design for IE 3 still- No you do not. SO why are you comparing it instead of 7.0? I know you haven't used NN since 6.0 PR1 yet you are bashing it...
    The official release of NN 6.0 was November 2000, 21 months ago. Comparing that with IE ath that time, we're between version 5.5B1 (Dec 1999) and version 5.5 Final Release. I think I can safely say that this version of IE was a very enjoyable browser to design for. If IE3 was still as popular as NN4, then this thread might be about this browser as well. However the stats at http://www.thecounter.com/stats/2002/August/browser.php suggest that IE 2 & 3 are even below NN3 as far as penetration goes. Netscape 4.x is 3rd on the list with 2% of the usage (IE5 is 1st with 49%, IE6 2nd with 41% - Hoorah!)

    As for having a very outdated version of NN, that's what this thread is about. I still test my sites on NN 4.7 (the buggiest browser of all time! http://www.richinstyle.com) and it still seems to be the NN browser with the most users on the web, despite the fact that netscape have released 2 new major versions! I guess that's why my business is being steadily pushed towards total flash based sites, removing any need for css/dhtml or other feasibly cross browser incompatible tags/scripts. Having said that, using flash opens up another can of worms all together!
    IE 3.X was the bugiest browser of all time. Any Java crashed it and it let web pages access and delete data directly from the users HD. IE 6.0 even still lets you do that.

    NS 6.0 PDR1 was out in Oct 1999. 6.0 Final was out in November 2000.

    6.1 and 6.2 and 7.0pr1 and 7.0 were all major versions. Its really 3 or 4 vesrions since 4.X. 6.1 is a major version becuase that was when they dumped their own code and started using mozilla code. 6.0X was 6.0 with bug fixes.

    Consider those stats for a moment...

    IE 5.X was distributed with 98SE, ME, and 2K. IE 6 was distributed with XP. Corperations recently had to upgrade to XP and downgrade to 2K if they so wished to remaian on 2K or not get any discounts. It looks to me like people are indeed using what comes with their version of Windows which is Why MS got sued in the first place.

    Also consider this...

    The stats are not correct. Opera by defualt returns that it is IE6. The counters can't acount for this. Kmleon can also be set in preferences to do this. Mozilla and NS can be hacked to do this. Also consider that the stats don't cover the entire internet and that even a fraction of a percent is Millions of users. All of AOLs 35 Million users are only 5%. 1% or 2% is a large fraction of users going into the millions.

    Honestly you can't really count the total number of browsers people are using becuase non IE browsers say that it is IE or can easily be made to do so.

    Also consider that Venezalla just passed a law requiring all of their Govts websites be accesable by Open Source Browsers http://www.theregus.com/content/4/26177.html and that other Govts are likey to follow suit. Californa has a law that is being considered that would do the same thing.

    Also consider that Chinese Govt has an inititive to produce its own copy of Linux where there is no IE. That's 1.2 Bilion people. Sure lock out 1+ Billion users...

    Its like we have all said- MS is not the standards making body the W3C is. Stray from the W3C spec and its your fault. Stick to it and then its the users fault for using a very outdated browser.


  11. #31
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2000
    Posts
    5,087

    Those Stats again

    1. MSIE 5.x 175390515 (49%)
    2. MSIE 6.x 147145114 (41%)
    3. Netscape 4.x 10549936 (2%)
    4. MSIE 4.x 9144984 (2%)
    5. Netscape comp. 3597527 (1%)
    6. Opera x.x 3413704 (0%)
    7. Netscape 6.x 2892219 (0%)
    8. Netscape 5.x 1898937 (0%)
    9. Unknown 1002930 (0%)
    10. Netscape 3.x 193985 (0%)
    11. MSIE 2.x 189046 (0%)
    12. MSIE 3.x 163214 (0%)
    13. Netscape 2.x 20222 (0%)
    14. Netscape 1.x 542 (0%)
    15. MSIE 1.x 405 (0%)

    - Oh yaeh these look like reliable Stats to me- NOT

    Opera 0%- who are they kidding (In all honesty that is probably what got returned to them as Opera says its IE by defualt).
    No check for NS 7.0pr1?
    No listing for Moz 1?

    Please they must think we are niave...




  12. #32
    Is IE for linux currently available...?

    I'd say that NN 7 and Mozilla would be included in the "Unknown". Just a stab of course.

    At the end of the day the one thing that is consistent amongst most of the stats I've seen is that the most popular NN browser is NN 4.x ("allegedly" the most buggy browser ever). As a result some level of testing should be done to ensure that the folks using this browser get a reasonable viewing experience.

    As for the Chinese government, wtf? As long as they implement a standards compliant browser, it's all good.

  13. #33
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2000
    Posts
    5,087
    http://www.theregus.com/content/4/26030.html

    I'd figure that if its based on Linux its likely to be Galeon or Mozilla or perhaps the KDE Browser depending on what they are working on.

    No- There is no IE for Linux. Most Linux Distros include Mozilla as the Web Browser along with with a few others on top of Mozilla.

    Also the IE for the MAC and IE for PC are diffrent except only one person has mentioned that little tidbit.




  14. #34
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Location
    Sydney Australia
    Posts
    140
    Originally posted by Cherokeetek
    LOL!! I gave up on NS a long time ago... about 3 years ago in fact. I'll never forget the phone call which ignited my decision to "abandon" NS.
    3 years ago?
    times change... N7 is not N4.7

    I was designing a simple search engine (frames, javascript, and graphics. Nothing special.)
    It's works exactly the way it was intended to work..in IE.
    so you designed a page for IE and it worked in IE? surprise?
    Maybe you had good code, but back in the 90's there was SO MUCH proprietry code that we all had to make two versions of everything. NO one really followed the standards back then, Before I did this for a living I loved NN4.1 and made pages for this browser... they worked exactly how I wanted them to in Netscape, but IE mangled them...

    By NS not conforming to "Standards", It's putting a damper in the growth and prosperity of the net. In my opinion, Netscape has held the industry back. If we were to waste our time with compatability in other industries that we depend on, we would still have horse drawn buggies slowing up Automobile traffic and steam engines in cars and kerosine lanterns in our bedrooms...etc.
    Now that there are recognised standards N7 follows them very well, much better than IE6
    During the "browser wars" companies were adding all sorts of cute toys to their browsers to try convince people to use them, these toys didn't work on the oppositions browsers.
    IE still does this a little but thankfully there is no longer an emphasis on it!

    Today if you write good code N7 will display it well, so I'll just write good code then.



  15. #35
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Posts
    536
    I think Netscape was a good product before AOL bought.
    After they bought it it went down hill. I hate to say it but I don't think there will be much of a future for Netscape. It used to be my favorite browser...

  16. #36
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Posts
    12
    I don't think all the millions of webizens voted W3C in and as such I pay no attention to web dictatorships. It's obvious that for WHATEVER reason the public have voted for IE and I for one am going to respect that!

    Allow me to take you back to the days of video cassettes... three formats (perhaps more) came out and only one survived VHS: technically it was about the worst of the three but it was the most popular! Eventually the voice of the second place contender's (Betamax) users became so infinitesimal that they stopped making them.

    I really don't think that web developers should have to put up with the inevitable flamings over compatibility notices after all you don't go down to blockbuster hire out a DVD and then phone up and complain when it gets stuck in the slot of your VCR do you?

    You would have thought that these compatibility vigilantes would have better stuff to do with their time... same way I've got better stuff to do with my time than jumping through nice W3C shaped hoops! I say let the users decide what they want!

  17. #37
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Posts
    199
    Originally posted by johnie
    Originally posted by nocrapchurch
    Here are the browser stats for Scottmanning.com visitors:

    56.4% MS Internet Explorer v6
    36.0% MS Internet Explorer v5
    2.35% Netscape Navigator v4
    1.59% Netscape Navigator v5
    1.50% AOL's Browser v7
    0.74% Opera v6
    0.57% MS Internet Explorer v4
    0.28% AOL's Browser v6
    0.14% Opera v5
    0.12% AOL's Browser v5
    0.08% AOL's Browser v4
    0.03% Other Agent
    0.02% WebTV
    0.01% Netscape Navigator v2
    0.01% AOL's Browser v8
    Where are the Moz 1.0 Stats?
    Where are the NS 7.0 Stats. I know I hit your site at least 5-6 times last month with NS 7.0?
    Where are your Amayou stats- I personally hit your site 1 time with Amayou.

    Also you are missing the point. The stats are meaningless as the browsers lie about what they are EG; You hit the site with Kmeleon and it tells the site it is IE 6 and is thus recorded as an IE 6 browser instead of a Mozilla distro. Opera is set by defualt to do this and Kmeloen does this through its settings.

    Opera has been doing this ever since MS locked out everything except NS 6 and IE at MSN.




    All these stats are nice, but misleading. After someone has visited your site and it has displayed incorrectly, they won't be back. Therefore your stats are skewed to show ONLY THOSE who can view your content properly, not the whole web.

  18. #38
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Posts
    199
    Originally posted by kendawg
    if(AOL8.isReleased){
    netscape.stats++;
    ie.stats--;
    }

    /**
    @Reasons
    + Most users are PC.
    + A majority of users are on AOL.
    + Almost every AOL user doesnt know that they can use IE
    + AOL pushes its new versions out in a whirlwind

    @Causes
    + Netscape doesn't die
    */
    AOL OWNS Nutscrape, but they SHIP a version of IE. It doesn't fill you with confidence - surely?

  19. #39
    they call me the_jump... le_saut's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Posts
    536
    I say let the users decide what they want!
    That's the problem, the users don't decide what they want it's handed to them when they start their new job or buy their new beige box.
    I use Mozilla mainly and even then I'm so conditioned into using IE that I look for the e when i want to browse then move on to the lizard.

    The "user" has trouble not opening exe files in Outlook - how much confidence does that fill us with?

    w3c standards are there for just the same reason that other global standards are available. You will notice that input into the W3c recommendations are made by people from a variety of places including Microsoft and Netscape.
    Having standards the vendors support means we don't have to worry about sniffing for 3 different browsers everytime someone visits a site.

    rgds
    James


  20. #40
    they call me the_jump... le_saut's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Posts
    536

    Re: Those Stats again

    Any good log analyser should be able to find Opera hiding among the IE's and NS's as an "Opera x.x" is always added to the UA string

    Here are some stats of mine..from Analog 5.24

    webqs.com - these are a "tad skewed" as the site has been up for about a 8 wks..and only in beta test.

    IE 6 - 50.5%
    IE 5 - 25.8%
    Moz 1 - 18.6% I use this....
    NS 4 - 1.1%
    OP 6 - 0.95%
    NS 2 - 0.8% ?????????????????? uch:
    NS 6 - 0.4%
    Moz 0.9 - 0.2%
    NS 7 - 0.1%
    NS 3 - 0.07%
    BOTS - 1.5%

    And for another general purpose site
    IE 6 : 47.5%
    IE 5 : 40.7%
    IE 4 : 5.1%
    NS6 : 1.4%
    NS4 : 0.5%
    BOTS : 4.8% - hmmmm



Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  




Click Here to Expand Forum to Full Width

HTML5 Development Center