What has it come to [the design industry].........

[serpent star]

I see your point.


I would suggest that if you were not a good cook and you were cooking in a restaurant and didn't have proper sanitation skills thus causes your restaurants patrons to become ill or just turn their nose up at the food, that chef might have a good point. One could compare your posing as a cook, to a teenager posing as a seasoned web professional, the restaurants patrons and thier reaction to the consequences of a teenage web "professional" not meeting thier clients and clients clients needs.

Fospher, I'm sorry to have angered you... perhaps it's your teenage insecurities shining through.

[fospher.com]

serpent - talk to me once you can make a decent site

[serpent star]

my site is of no consequence... I am a promoter by trade, my design is secondary and I have had nary a client complain, in fact most have trumpeted the virtues of my professionalism, timelyness, and the fact that the entire process of building a site, was painless and much more understood when my job was through. I have been able to drive targeted traffic to all of thier sites and give a quality ROI and that, lad is the mark of a professionalism.


When your site is long forgotten and outdated, my clients sites will still be making them money. and that's all I have to say about that.

[fospher.com]

Originally posted by serpent star
in fact most have trumpeted the virtues of my professionalism, timelyness, and the fact that the entire process of building a site

then why knock on those younger than you?

and fospher will never die - its been running for 3 years now - averaging 6000+ visitors daily

[serpent star]

Fospher, I'm not knocking them... I'm suggesting that they allow themselves to learn more than the ins and outs of some piece of software before they join the the world of web professionals... When I look at your site, i think it's great for what it is... a fun site that allows you to experiment and explore your creativity... kudos on that... if your intended audience is young people who would enjoy the light hearted whimsy of your site, then you target them brilliantly and the 6000 uniques is a testament to that. But there is a large jump from that to a viable client, clients consumer serving website that must be more than flash tricks. It must connect with a different demographic... a demographic that I would say most teenagers feel alienated by, therefore they reciprocate that alienation. This is a big hurdle that only few can graciously overcome. In addition, only time in the trenches can improve the asthetic sophistication of a design. It just takes time, wisdom, and experience. That's all I'm saying... I never meant to offend you, I just wanted to give you something to think about.

[SubwayDesigns]

Originally posted by RipX
ok, hang on a minute, I just actually went to your site, in your work section, first out subnet.org

- Basic user site but requires flash 6 < BAD
- Preloader appears on 29% / 39% < BAD
- Graphic Equilizer either array or tweened < BAD
- Icons not actually deisned, there windows icons < BAD
- Rotating menu < Not original < BAD
- Motion intro that's boring and seen a million times < BAD

Well, need I go on, and yes there is more...

- that ****ty move clip _x. to _xmouse rubbish < BAD

So where is your inovative design that's not replicated from other sources???

RipX

P.S. I couldn't be bothered to look at any past the first, I was falling asleep!

RipX, please tell me why you bothered to post that. Did I criticize your work? Did I offend you in any way? I wasn't even "slagging on fospher", as you say. I was just pointing out something that didn't seem clear. You just want to make me look bad, with no reason. Doesn't seem very reasonable, does it? Let's all calm down here, I've never participated in a flame war, and I'm not going to start anytime soon.

But if kids didn't start playing football at 4 years old and be rubbish at it they wouldn't become great players by the time they hit around 18. If they started playing at 17 they'd probably be at the same level as when the other kid was 12 or so????

I'm 24 so don't worry about your comments but hell I've probably seen more tallented programmers and designers at 15 that are better than you or I!! - Take ed_mack, I don't think he codes for anything other than a hobby. I think he's only young but I bet he kicks your ass at actionscript!!!

Now this is fine, but the difference appears when people want to make money out of their hobby.
You see, the kid who plays football at 4 is not trying to make people pay for his services. The kid who starts a design company at 10, is. And most of the time (notice I'm not ruling out exceptions), this kid will probably hurt the industry by (1) underselling himself (2) being arrogant (3) not being serious enough in his work.
So my point is, it's great to design as a hobby, I'd encourage it. But try to avoid the errors I mentionned above if you want to make this a bit more than a hobby.

-Sub.

[SubwayDesigns]

And by the way, sometimes I have to design something for a client. I'm not free to do whatever I please on every project. The only thing I did without somebody guiding me was subwaydesigns.net. If I want to get my check, I have to execute the ideas of my client, anybody who's a freelancer would know that. This being said, I try my best to work with the (often very little) freedom I do have.

[ninudesi]

what a well said statement...i couldn't agree more

[RipX]

Originally posted by SubwayDesigns
And by the way, sometimes I have to design something for a client. I'm not free to do whatever I please on every project. The only thing I did without somebody guiding me was subwaydesigns.net. If I want to get my check, I have to execute the ideas of my client, anybody who's a freelancer would know that. This being said, I try my best to work with the (often very little) freedom I do have.

#

Exactly - So don't knock people who do it for FUN as a hobby and enjoy having the run of there ideas and freedom of expession! You need to go and design yourself a personality, your very sad. If your soooo good at what you do, then you wouln't worry about young people treading on your toes because you'd have so much business ha. Maybe you are just feeling belittled when you see work by someone young that you didn't get! (jealous)

RipX - That's it from me! I think i've made my point!

[SubwayDesigns]

Originally posted by RipX
#

Exactly - So don't knock people who do it for FUN as a hobby and enjoy having the run of there ideas and freedom of expession! You need to go and design yourself a personality, your very sad. If your soooo good at what you do, then you wouln't worry about young people treading on your toes because you'd have so much business ha. Maybe you are just feeling belittled when you see work by someone young that you didn't get! (jealous)

RipX - That's it from me! I think i've made my point!

RipX, you could honestly not be more wrong, and I would like you to tell me on what you base your statements. I have never "knocked on" anybody who was doing it as a hobby (If I did, show me where), and in all my messages I make a clear distinction between people who design as a hobby, and those who do it for business.
Also, please don't start making comments about my personality when you don't really know me. I think boards are better off without this type of comments, and I have not attacked you personnaly, so I really don't see why this is needed.
I am definitely not someone who is jealous and frustrated and that's not the reason why I posted all the messages I wrote so far. I have many faults, but that is not one of them.
Maybe you would like to know that I am also a young designer (16), and that I don't even consider myself as an exception to the category I described. I undersell my services, and I hurt the industry, yes. But I do take myself seriously, and I am far from arrogant.

On another note, I really can't understand your anger towards me. I really have not done, or said anything I am aware of that you could've taken personnaly, and I repeat I have never attacked anybody who was doing it as a hobby.
I think this is what started the misunderstanding

Doesn't mean every young designer is bad, just that a whole lot of them are taking "design" for a hobby, when it should be taken a little more seriously if you ever want to get anything out of it.

When I said that I meant by "design", start a company and selling their services. If this is what you intend to do, you should take it a bit more seriously than "just a hobby".
I'd be glad to explain my viewpoint (for the third time in this thread) in a different way if what I have said so far doesn't satisfy you. But you'll have to calm down first, and please direct your insulting statements somewhere else. Thank you.

[FairyJanis]

hi all
read as much as i could for i am busy job hunting.

but to add to the origical idea of the post. From working in web design i find companies often ask for a specific look based off of another company. so the designer ends up just ripping off the design to appease the clients. the mark of a commisioned artist/designer.

i agree with the comments that most teenagers can not be professional. the maturity level is not there. however it is good that they are showing an intrest in designing or programming at a young and can practice the shills needed. besides better off behind a computer then a crack pipe.

if one chooses to go into the field of design and calls it a hobby then you have just made a mockery of all those who are designers by profession.

[SubwayDesigns]

Originally posted by FairyJanis
if one chooses to go into the field of design and calls it a hobby then you have just made a mockery of all those who are designers by profession.

Very well said.

[Frets]

i take a certain amount of umbrage with the cook usage.

If sanitation or proper rotation of product is not handled properly
Then quite frankly it's the chef's fault.

I know I'm a chef.

You cannot pass on standards by osmosis. Only thru re enforcement of them both in your own habits and in what you verbally express twards your staff.

As for cooking ability it's developed some develop it some do not.
I've had extremely good cooks develop at both young and older ages
And extremely bad cooks of all age groups that I've had to let go because they weren't fit for the position.

Personal pride, self respect not boastfulness I've found separates the wheat from the chaff.
If one puts pride into preparation and presentation the proof is
always in the end product. It is as pleasing to the eye as it is to
the palette. A good seasoned cook needs no praise. His food has the same high standard whether it be for beggar or king. Whether it be the first meal he's served that day or the last. Whether he's cooked
10 meals or a 1000 the same pride goes in.

Frets

[FairyJanis]

Originally posted by SubwayDesigns
Very well said.

thank you subway

Not all users of hacked programs are teenagers. there are plenty of adults out there who do the same.

[jojoco]

yes I am with you
although only been at Flash for a year or 2
coming from a fine arts background
lots of these sites look too generic to be impressive to me
some sort of sacrifice is involved in any situation but it remains clear to me that technical skills are not meeting visual innovation in a harmonious seamless interface
but what if that is what the customer wants?

[monstermash]

ability regardless of age.

[erova]

ability regardless of age?

sounds nice, but that's fantasy land. experience and maturity also count in the real world.

[monstermash]

i am implying that ability includes maturity and experience. the ability to produce a beautifully functional site in the real world.

[Gloomycus]

Originally posted by serpent star
Gloomy does an exceptional job on the design side, but he is one of the only ones that really come to mind straight away.

smooth.