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Thread: Looking for New logo

  1. #21
    Mosaicist
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    Logo Picked thank you all for your help!

    Your right. I have decided that I like Graham Logo and it best fits the idea i was looking for. I have decided I will have him make my logo and I will pay him to create my site.

    Thanks to all that Participated!
    Joe Urena
    http://www.mosaiclegs.com
    I mosaic therefore I am

  2. #22
    Aquaverse gdstudios's Avatar
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    Originally posted by mselto
    Im sorry... I dont mean to be an *******... but it is kind of sad to see a bunch of designers competing over a 25 dollar logo...once-upon-a-time logos were taken pretty seriously... there was research... critique...(and... gasp.. money to pay for it!) If we keep providing stuff for nothing... people will keep expecting it... and the overall quality of both the work and the profession will suffer! Sorry.. but I had to say something!
    I hope you feel better man. You'll most likely be contacted about your foul language. Do us all a favor and if you don't have anything meaningful and constructive to say, back off and ignore the thread.

  3. #23
    Oh chill... they can even say that on TV...
    Tiger got to hunt,
    Bird got to fly;
    Man got to sit and wonder, "Why, why, why?"

    Tiger got to sleep,
    Bird got to land;
    Man got to tell himself he understand.

    www.michaelselto.com

  4. #24
    And I do feel better... because this is the kind of thing that is killing my industry! By the way... do you have any idea what Piet Mondrian's work was about? Maybe you should check out a history book...
    Tiger got to hunt,
    Bird got to fly;
    Man got to sit and wonder, "Why, why, why?"

    Tiger got to sleep,
    Bird got to land;
    Man got to tell himself he understand.

    www.michaelselto.com

  5. #25
    Aquaverse gdstudios's Avatar
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    I'm just suggesting that you say what you need to say without offending anyone. There's really no need for it. As for killing the industry, you can't be serious. That, or you are new to Flashkit. The nice thing about this resource is that thousands of designers such as myself are always available to assist fellow designers. That's what makes this a community. Honestly, some of us would've helped this FK member out for free, but he offered $25. The work that fellow FK'ers did for him was great and he's happy. Everyone seems to be happy here except you. You chill and try to have some decency.

  6. #26
    look... im not trying to be a jerk.. really.... I love FK... it has been a great help to me! But this kind of thing sucks!.. When I create a logo it takes a lot of time and effort. I research the industry, gain an understanding of the clients needs... All of this costs money! I don't just slap together some silly thing in photoshop and call it done. When people do this and perpetuate this idea that some kid can just make a logo for 25 bucks in twenty minutes and that is just as good as a well researched and thoughtful piece of design... we all suffer! I dont know... its just sad.. thats all. But please.. I'm trying to be constructive... not just be mean...
    Tiger got to hunt,
    Bird got to fly;
    Man got to sit and wonder, "Why, why, why?"

    Tiger got to sleep,
    Bird got to land;
    Man got to tell himself he understand.

    www.michaelselto.com

  7. #27
    Aquaverse gdstudios's Avatar
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    Thank you for settling down and discussing the matter nicely. Listen up. If only you could hear yourself as I do. You're flipping out over nothing. The person who asked for the logo obviously doesn't have much money, so he wouldn't be able to afford your superior services anyways, right? FK is the perfect medium for this type of work. Someone asked for some help and voila. I gues I don't get why you're so angry, but I'd like to help.

  8. #28
    I'm not really angry... just sad... and I didnt make any claims as to the absolute superiority of my work either... and I understand that not everyone has a bunch of money to spend on a logo. Really the issue is not about money so much at all. Its about principle. It's just that I feel that what I do is worth something. It's not worth something because I'm some sort of super genius who can produce brilliant logos with a wave of the hand. It's worth something because I work very hard to make my work the best it can be.

    Really it's not my business what someone wants to charge for a logo...and I apologize if my comments were hurtful. Its just that it really hurts me when someone comes to me and says "yeah I need a logo for my business...I'll give you 20 bucks" I just think that as a community we need to have enough respect for ourselves to realize that what we do is valuable. And if we dont treat our work as valuable than no one else will either.

    For designers.. I think that this means to respect yourself and your industry enough to make your work valuable. This means.. research... learn...find out about what makes a great design in the first place. Study the masters... Rand, Glaser, Bass, etc.... And when the opportunity to create something for a business comes up...study that business, find out who the competitors are and how they handle their identity, research the history. Make sure that business is worth your time to promote...especially if you're going to do the work for (basically) free. And when you make a deal with someone to do work for nothing make sure you stand to benefit in the future from that company's success... There is of course the famous story of Carol Davidson, she created the Nike Swoosh and sold it for $35! I think Nike made a pretty impressive return on that deal!

    And for business owners... I think the same applies to them... If you have pride in what you do... exhibit that pride when working with others... A logo should be seen as the most important graphic statement that your company makes. If you think all that is worth is 25 dollars than I expect that your business isn't worth much more. If you are starting out and you don't have much money... find a designer who is in the same boat... but make a fair deal with them for future compensation.

    Anyway... I have said my piece... maybe if this situation is that common here on Flashkit there should be more open discussion about it. Again... I'm not the type of person who just wants to act superior. I am simply expressing my deep respect for the business of graphic design, and I hope maybe to inspire others to have that same respect. The more respect we have for ourselves and the more we know about design the more we are in a place to educate the rest of the business world about our industry and its value.

    The End for now...
    Tiger got to hunt,
    Bird got to fly;
    Man got to sit and wonder, "Why, why, why?"

    Tiger got to sleep,
    Bird got to land;
    Man got to tell himself he understand.

    www.michaelselto.com

  9. #29
    Mosaicist
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    Smelto as we are both artist I respect your thoughts. I know $25 is not alot of money but when I asked this...I had in mind of more work being done for me like redoing my website. I am a Network Engineer and do not claim to be a webmaster. As you can tell with my website in which is obvious was created with Frontpage. This is why I came here. I enjoy graphic design and I am really impressed with mx_kid cause people like him have a great talent. He got a picture in his mind when he saw my site and created a logo. Some people dont have to research and give it much thought. They are imaginative and have an eye and mind for design. I know he will go far. He is only twenty but shows great potential to become greater then he already is. I have hired him to redo my website which in turn ended up making him more then just $25 dollars. Graham is a talented designer and as you can tell in the layout below has an eye for simple and professional layout in which I am very pleased.

    http://www.gravicdesign.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/mosaic.htm

    I am new to the entrepreneur side of life. I have always been in the IT field as a Network Engineer. I just moved from seattle to Californa after working there for Microsoft. I am ready to expierence a different side of life pursuing life as a Mosaicist.

    To me the negativity isn't necessary I don't know if your not working and seeing this makes you Frustrated or cause your entering the new level in your life you feel you need to express yourself regarding the matter of me asking for some help on getting a new logo?

    I feel very appreciative of the logo mx_kid made me as I am sure Nike was when Carol Davidson made the swoosh for them.

    As far as Mondrian, The Table was made for a friend in the Netherlands. I know enough about mondrians influence in the advertising, decorative and industrial business that I wanted to reproduce his III composition in tile on a table. I love his work and am very familiar with his history.

    comments without thought makes you look ignorant cause you assume you know what you are talking about. I am not sure what your comment meant or what your intent was? but to me it reflects your imaturity and want of attention or way to prove to other you are intelligent and well educated. You are really not achieving this with the comments you make... I would also think twice about reffering to yourself as a Communicator and Idea guy. seems to me your more stuck on yourself then anything.

    Joe Urena
    I mosaic therefore I am
    http://www.mosaiclegs.com
    Joe Urena
    http://www.mosaiclegs.com
    I mosaic therefore I am

  10. #30
    Aquaverse gdstudios's Avatar
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    New site looks great joe.

  11. #31
    Hi Joe...

    First off.. the comment about Mondrian was off base... I apologize.

    I don't see however how you could look at what I said and assume that I am stuck on myself... I am stuck on design! I love it... I have a huge amount of passion for it. And when I see it treated like something you can get out of a vending machine it makes me very sad. I know that this is not unique to forums like flashkit... but is currently a trend that is taking over the entire business of design. I am simply expressing myself... and my disdain for the downward slide of the standards of this industry.

    This is not to say that what mx_kid is doing for you is bad... in fact it looks very professional... and mx I hope that you dont take this personally! But I would have to wonder at statements like "some people don't have to research or give it much thought"... this is exactly what I charge for in my work! THOUGHT And if you ask any designer that is worth his mouse... they will tell you the same thing. And yes I do consider myself a communicator and idea guy because to me that is the one and only purpose of graphic design.

    Another comment that I have to wonder about is "Im sure Nike appreciated what Carol Davidson did for them" Yes and I'm sure they "appreciate" what the 10 year old kids in their sweatshops do for them too. Im not trying to get political here but my point is that great design is not something you can get from an assembly line(Again mx... your work is not what I'm referring to...), and that as designers we need to realize that we are valuable...notice that I said WE not I!!!

    These are not comments without thought...I have done a lot of thinking about these things, and I wouldn't have posted in the first place if I didn't know what I was talking about... My point was not to belittle anyone or draw attention to myself... it was to draw attention to this issue... which is not just a creation of my delusional mind... it is REAL! And yes I am ignorant! There are a great many things in this universe that I don't know! And I would think this goes for you too! I am sharing with you what I do know... and that is that graphic design is a rich and complex vocation that deserves respect!

    Anyway... I am sorry if my comments were taken too personally.. this was my fault... I am just trying to get discussion going on this issue... which what forums are all about! (maybe not this particular forum... like I said maybe this subject is something worth talking about in another one) Please forgive any comments I made about your work Joe... that was not the issue in the first place and I shouldn't have said it...

    So... anyway... its good to talk about this stuff (at least I think so) what does the rest of the community think?... Am I really just an arrogant ***hole? (see... I can even censor myself )

    Peace... Love... and Design...
    Tiger got to hunt,
    Bird got to fly;
    Man got to sit and wonder, "Why, why, why?"

    Tiger got to sleep,
    Bird got to land;
    Man got to tell himself he understand.

    www.michaelselto.com

  12. #32
    Mosaicist
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    Mike,
    Please forgive me for firing off like that. I respect you and your words.

    When I made the comment that "some people don't have to research or give it much thought" What I meant is that some people just have a natural talent or vibe when it comes to design...its like second nature to them. I in no way meant this in a degrading way. Other people have to sit down and examine the idea and brainstorm on it. There is nothing wrong with both. I know I do both when I am creating something. Sometimes its just there other times it takes some brain tweaking. I was actually praising graham when i made that comment, I am not sure how you understood it differently.

    Joe Urena
    I mosaic therefore I am
    http://www.mosaiclegs.com
    Joe Urena
    http://www.mosaiclegs.com
    I mosaic therefore I am

  13. #33
    Yes... Paul Rand (One of the very greatest!) said:

    "The fundamental skill of a designer is intuition... and you can't teach intuition."

    I think this is very true... but it is not everything. One of my frustrations is that many people view the artist as this sort of floaty, totally with "the moment" freewheeler... and that what we do is all just for the sake of "expression" Yes sometimes this is true... and very often inspiration comes from seemingly nowhere... But the thing is that this assumption leads one to believe that this business is easy and that we are just out here having fun... We are... but this is also a serious business... one that has REAL ramifications in the REAL world. When the artist is viewed this way it is easy to assume that our work is basically worthless... I mean were just out here enjoying ourselves right?

    I know that you are an artist too.. and that you probably have experienced this frustration yourself... so I hope that in your dealings with other artists you would know that this is WORK and that good design takes a lot of it. I don't know what kind of arrangements you have made with mx.. and it is not my business to ask... but I assume you are planning to make money in your business... and his contribution is KEY to your success... so I hope that this is considered! Not only by you but by mx.

    When I work for a client.. I feel I owe them the service of doing a great deal of research and planning... to me this is what the business is all about. And this is what I charge for. I am not you and I am not mx. So I cant make any assumptions about how you do business. I am merely trying to say that when we as designers devalue our work and treat it like a cheap commodity as if it were something we can just reach on the shelf and put in a bag and send the client on their way.. then we are killing ourselves!

    This is a profession with a rich and IMPORTANT history... (If you know something about Mondrian and De Stijl then you know what I'm talking about!)and I guess I just cant stand seeing it turn into something you can buy in a kit at Wal-Mart...which is rapidly happening! Again... this has nothing to do with the quality of the particular work that mx is doing for you, this is not a design critique. This is a general statement about the sadly declining state of our profession.

    Anyway... damn... all this talking about design is keeping me from actually DOING it! Its been a pleasure Joe and gd... I hope there are no hard feelings! Feel free to shoot me an e-mail if you want! Or we can keep going here... (at least until the moderator gets sick of me )

    -Mike
    Tiger got to hunt,
    Bird got to fly;
    Man got to sit and wonder, "Why, why, why?"

    Tiger got to sleep,
    Bird got to land;
    Man got to tell himself he understand.

    www.michaelselto.com

  14. #34
    even though i agree with a lot of your sayings smelto, there's a few things that we have to know...

    being a designer as well as a tech support for a ISP, i've learned a few things, just see these from a -non designer- or -no computer knowledge- point of view

    1- almost anyone can work with computers, its only point and click after all
    2- web pages are just made of buttons and text, so anyone with Photoshop can do the job
    3- you can get your hand on almost Any graphic software for free (Trial ver.), so again, anyone can get his/her hand on these programs, practice for a week or two and be good at it
    4- i can find the same for les money

    Now, if you accept these as facts, wich they are unfortunately, you might understand now why some logos are paid 25$ or so (and im not saying that to ***** about the deal that was done here, none of my business) and that you can have a 7 or 8 pages website for about 200 or 300$ (even including animations sometimes) or that you can find template websites for around 10$ even...

    this is not necessarely the bad side of design... its just the business side of it...

    the number of people able to build a webpage (even bad ones) exceed BY FAR the number of people who needs a designer, webdesigner... no wonder we have to charge 400$ for a contract we were charging around 2000$ four or five years ago...

    anyway...

  15. #35
    No this is not necessarily the "bad" side of design... nor is it the "business" side of design... it is the HORRIFIC side of design... Im very aware of the things you pointed out... thats exactly what I'm talking about!

    Now before I go any further... and get accused of jumping down your throat... I want to say again that I'm not trying to get personal or belittle you or anyone else... nor am I trying to act like Im some kind of unquestionable design god.... (I know this is redundant, but I am trying to cover my bases ) Im trying to inspire a little respect in y'all... not for ME.. but for YOURSELF!!!

    Just because someone can push a power button and have at least the tiny attention span necessary to install photoshop, does not make them a designer! This is like saying if I can manage to scribble my name on a napkin than I can write like Vonnegut...

    My concern is not about money! Really it has very little to do with it! Its about respect for the profession! I understand that economics is a driving force in design... but it is not the only force! Take a look at the history of design... (The History of Graphic Design by Philip Meggs is great one...) You might be surprised to learn (Now Im not automatically assuming you don't know this... so dont get mad..)that the people that created this profession did so for reasons that had absolutely nothing to do with capitalism! In fact they were MARXISTS!!! Graphic design was created (Now of course you can argue that graphic design was invented in a cave somewhere a million years ago... but I am talking about the thing that (until recently) we know of as graphic design) as an instrument of social change! It was created because there was a contention of artists that actually had the insane notion that what artists do MATTERS... and not in a "looks nice above the mantle" sort of way!

    I am not trying to get into a dissertation on graphic design history here... but Im trying to make y'all aware that is HAS one! And that it is important! Our profession is DYING... it is being replaced by crap companies that offer do-it-yourself LogosInAnHour.com BULL****!!! While I realize that this is a result of an increasingly corporate world.. it is also very much a result of our APATHY! My point in posting all these crazy tirades is not to make myself look smart! The point of all of this is to PLEAD for the life of what took many many years and even BLOODY REVOLUTION (take a look at the Russian contructivists) to bring to us... and is now being mindlesslessly cast aside for the sake of convenience!!! If we as a community do not realize our worth and find it important to understand that worth... than we will become WORTHLESS!!! If this is ok with you than well... hey I guess all this is in vain...

    Please... don't think Im up here yelling and screaming for nothing... or that I'm just trying to act intellectually superior... I really care about design!!! And I really care about y'all!!! You are my people!!! I wouldn't waste my time doing this otherwise!!! Believe it or not I do have other things to do besides post in this forum! (well... maybe not for the last couple days... )

    Anyway... I really hope someone out there got SOMETHING from all this... goodnight FK land!
    Tiger got to hunt,
    Bird got to fly;
    Man got to sit and wonder, "Why, why, why?"

    Tiger got to sleep,
    Bird got to land;
    Man got to tell himself he understand.

    www.michaelselto.com

  16. #36
    Originally posted by mselto
    [B]it is the HORRIFIC side of design... Im very aware of the things you pointed out... thats exactly what I'm talking about!
    sorry, but that's not true at all... it might be true if you see it the 'designer way', but that is one ONE way to see it... horrorific, sheesh...

    I want to say again that I'm not trying to get personal or belittle you or anyone else... nor am I trying to act like Im some kind of unquestionable design god.... (I know this is redundant, but I am trying to cover my bases ) Im trying to inspire a little respect in y'all... not for ME.. but for YOURSELF!!!
    well, if you really think that because a designer accepted a job, ONE job, for "not much" he doesnt have self-respect... you're jumping fast on conclusions...

    Just because someone can push a power button and have at least the tiny attention span necessary to install photoshop, does not make them a designer! This is like saying if I can manage to scribble my name on a napkin than I can write like Vonnegut...
    true, when you see it from someone who "know about" again... but guess what, 80% of the computer users see their PC like cars, you put the key in and it should work. that's it... you might not like it, you might even hate it... but that's a fact, something you have to live with... right now, you're talking Vonnegut to blind people... (its just an image of course) "you've got eyes too man, why dont you look and see, you lazy f**k!"

    My point in posting all these crazy tirades is not to make myself look smart! The point of all of this is to PLEAD for the life of what took many many years and even BLOODY REVOLUTION (take a look at the Russian contructivists) to bring to us...
    nah, but having artistic-historical knowledge doesnt make someone an artist...

  17. #37
    mullet king
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    This thread is crazy

    *Eats popcorn*

    I did some work, I got paid. <----- thats a period

    I hope you dont take this as arrogance, but I'm now looking forward to developing a healthy relationship with Joe,
    who has provided me with enough work to last a year

    Anyone heard of a loss leader?

    Anyways, I have work to do.

    Later bro

    gray

  18. #38
    Nyuk! Nyuk! Nyuk! Hey Moe... serpent star's Avatar
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    see now gray, that is a problem. Hey, you got to do what you got to do to get paid. I just see it as continuing a bad precedent. It gives a hint of validity to the carrot on a string clients out there. We've all had em. You know the type... "gimme this one project really cheap and I can assure you, I'll send you more referals than you can handle." so you do the project on the cheap or for free and nothing materializes. So hundreds of new designers will continue to give away free work further separating the major design firms from joe shlunks quality web design and low and behold, the middle drops out. Either you are recognised as awesome on a 2A level, or you work for free. We're not there yet, but it pushes things in this direction.

    I guess that's why I wouldn't do it as a contest. I figured yeah, I'll help a guy out, but be assured that he understands that he got a hell of a deal. This contest freework stuff undermines our industry. What happened here isn't the nail in the coffin, but just another example of what is wrong with the industry and further illustrates the need for web professional organization culminating in unionization.

    That's my take on it.


    Nice job by the way. You are way too talented, Graham, to be underselling yourself.

  19. #39
    Nyuk! Nyuk! Nyuk! Hey Moe... serpent star's Avatar
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    oh yeah... I think there is a fine line between loss leader and predatory pricing practices.

  20. #40
    Hey... thats all I wanted .. a little conversation! Oh yes... very nice work Graham... (I was waiting to hear from you... ) Just hope that what I had to say made some sense to you... (and that none of it was taken personally)

    True... knowledge doesn't make you an artist... but it sure as hell can't hurt either...

    You know... I never got into design to get rich... so predatory pricing in and of itself is not what concerns me... its the health of this profession as a whole... and I would like to see it remain valid and important... thats all... Unionization may not be a bad idea... however this opens up a whole new can of worms... and could lead to even less creativity... which is really the thing Im most concerned about... so I don't know... this is an interesting thought.

    Really I think there is a very GOOD side to the new-found accessability of the tools of graphic design. I mean look at what happened when Gutenburg invented movable type... a lot of people that had been for centuries lettering books by hand were out of business... and Im sure they were pissed off about it. But that was small price to pay because all of a sudden books werent the kind of thing only the extremely rich could afford anymore... (just the mostly rich...) this of course led to all sorts of pretty damn amazing things... just as the computer is doing now! We have yet to even fathom the kinds of things this will lead to... sharing of knowledge is NEVER a bad thing in my book... its just when knowledge and history are discarded in favor of a quick turn-around time that concerns me...

    anyway... I would like to see this converstation go on... maybe it looks like I'm beating a dead horse... but I would like to hear from more of you!!!

    Bye now!
    Tiger got to hunt,
    Bird got to fly;
    Man got to sit and wonder, "Why, why, why?"

    Tiger got to sleep,
    Bird got to land;
    Man got to tell himself he understand.

    www.michaelselto.com

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