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Thread: FK official war thread !!

  1. #3921
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    david petley's Avatar
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    Originally posted by gdstudios
    Fine. Understood. I have perceptions of your views of American and its methods, I may be wrong with those percetions, only you know. My question is this. What possess you to comment and criticize other peoples' governments when your own has problems. I mean, you have a right to act however you want, but doesn't that seem weird to you? I suppose not, you're doing it.
    I believe that it is everyone's obligation to constantly criticise any wrongs they see.......regardless of who the perpetrator is.

    And reflecting what you said above..."What possess you to comment and criticize other peoples' governments when your own has problems"

    ....Your government has its own problems yet sees fit to criticise other governments, why should not we as individuals have the same rights as your government.

    Isn't that part of what freedom is all about, the right to speak out against perceived injustice?

    Should we be quiet because the injustice is being done by our own governments, or somebody elses?

    dp
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  2. #3922
    I Mastered Dead Technology TallGuyLittleCar's Avatar
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    Originally posted by gerbick

    Syria is not even on my radar man.
    concerning the use of force, I don't think syria is on anybody's mind, well maybe those that earn their living from head lines.

    concerning the marines firing on "protestors". The story is the crowd was trying to storm the building. I don't think the marines where equiped to deal with a hostile crowd in a non leathel way. This is very unfortunate and hopefully will be taken care of.

    Rubber bullets have been used by the police in california. lets not confuse the two incidents.
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  3. #3923
    Aquaverse gdstudios's Avatar
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    Originally posted by swampy
    You could apply the same analogy to your (and my)governments "criticising" Iraq's government
    Now you could say that the same anology could be applied to the US criticizing other democratic governments for their methods when the US has its own problems to deal with. I'll say one more time that, when it comes to dictatorships, or any regime where the leadership is not elected, I will not address posts that try to equate democracies to those regimes. That's what you've done here. Iraq was illegitmate Swampy. Any government not supported by the people under referendum does not warrant my attention. And, no, Bush did not steal the election.

  4. #3924
    Senior Member Hellsbellboy's Avatar
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    Originally posted by swampy
    Not newsworthy ???!!!!

    15 people killed for demonstrating and throwing stones

    Rubber bullets / batton rounds are somewhat different from live ammunition. For a start they are about a foot long and made of rubber, live amiunition tends to be more pointy and made of lead with a brass covering. Live amuntion also travels a lot faster.

    Given that we have harped on about how we have liberated the Iraqis and they are now free, it kind of stinks that we fire live amunition into crowds of protetstors that are exercising their democratic, free and liberated right to protest, stome throwing or not.

    Where do you get your news from??? I read on many sites was 7 people killed, the Marine's were being shot at.. not shots fired in the air, but aimed shots.. People were seen in the crowed carrying weapons. Get your facts straight. I know of no country that tolerants Protestors shooting at the authorities.. freedom of speech or not..

  5. #3925
    Aquaverse gdstudios's Avatar
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    Originally posted by david petley
    And reflecting what you said above..."What possess you to comment and criticize other peoples' governments when your own has problems"

    ....Your government has its own problems yet sees fit to criticise other governments, why should not we as individuals have the same rights as your government.
    This is a valid argument. I disagree because I see differences between other countries crticizing America and America criticizing other countries, but I see your point.

    *attempts to put his ethnocentrism aside for a post*

  6. #3926
    Senior Member Hellsbellboy's Avatar
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    U.S.: At Least 7 Iraqis Killed in Mosul Protest
    Wed April 16, 2003 08:50 AM ET




    AS SAYLIYA CAMP, Qatar (Reuters) - U.S. troops killed at least seven Iraqis in Mosul when a demonstration against their presence in the northern city turned violent on Tuesday, a U.S. official said on Wednesday.
    Brigadier General Vincent Brooks told reporters at Central Command in Qatar that demonstrators fired at Marines and special operations forces in a government building the Americans had occupied in the center of the city.

    "Fire was directed at the Marines and special operations forces in this complex. It was aimed fire, and aimed fire was returned against some of the demonstrators, against some of the agitators climbing the wall of the compound. It was lethal fire," he told a daily news conference.

    He said at least seven people were killed and a number wounded.

    Iraq's third largest city has been plagued by looting and violence since the Iraqi army gave it up without a fight last Friday.

    A prominent Kurdish-backed leader in the city accused U.S. forces of stoking tensions by raising the Stars and Stripes over the building. In an interview with al-Jazeera television, Mashaan al-Juburi, the so-called governor of the city some 240 miles north of Baghdad, said the trouble erupted during an anti-U.S. protest.

    "I was standing in the middle of protesters. I tried to calm them," he said. "When people saw the U.S. forces enter the (governor's) building and raise the American flag, they seethed and started stoning the U.S. forces."

    Brooks said demonstrators hurled stones and spat at the U.S. forces and also torched a civilian vehicle.

    "The attacking was occurrent on two sides and there was clear observation of men with weapons involved in firing on the building during that time," he said in a stark, blow-by-blow description of the incident.

    Protesters fired gunshots in the air, prompting U.S. forces to retaliate with their own warning shots.

    Within hours of falling to U.S. and Kurdish fighters last Friday, the city, which is a focus of historic rivalry between Arabs and Kurds, descended into anarchy as looters swooped on public buildings in a frenzy of arson and plunder.

    BANK ROBBERY SHOOT-OUT

    In a sign that the city was still plagued by law and order problems, Juburi said three people were killed on Wednesday in a bank robbery.

    Jazeera quoted an Iraqi policeman as saying police fired shots in an attempt to stop the robbery and, in the confusion, U.S. troops fired back in their direction.

    It showed pictures of two children hurt in the shoot-out, both of whom said they were hit by Americans.

    Juburi said that despite Wednesday's incident the city of more than one million people was now safe. "There is security, electricity, water, policemen. I am standing next to the fire brigade, they do not have any work because we have put out all the fires," he said.

    "Things are back to normal, 90 percent of those who looted came from the outskirts of the city, not the city center."

    A Reuters team left Mosul on Saturday after shooting broke out near the team's car twice in the space of 20 minutes

  7. #3927
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    david petley's Avatar
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    Originally posted by gdstudios
    And, no, Bush did not steal the election.

    But it was hardly a "clean as a whistle", clear-cut victory. When a leader gets power with a minority of popular support, regardless of how the laws actually allow it to happen, then there must always a slight aroma of doubt about how a system, that allows such a situation, could still exist in a country that purports to be representitive of the people.

    dp
    No longer a Flashkit mod, not even by stealth

    Insanity is just a point of view. After all, the world looks pretty normal through your own underpants.

  8. #3928
    Senior Member Hellsbellboy's Avatar
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    U.S.: Troops working to calm Mosul
    Italy to seek extradition of Abu Abbas
    Wednesday, April 16, 2003 Posted: 10:48 AM EDT (1448 GMT)



    After being cleared at a checkpoint set up by U.S. troops in the outskirts of Tikrit, residents return to homes they fled days ago to escape fighting.

    -MOSUL, Iraq (CNN) -- Tensions ran high Wednesday in the northern Iraqi city of Mosul as U.S. Marines tried to assert control and citizens protested the "American occupation" of the main government building, a senior Kurdish intelligence official told CNN.

    A clash Tuesday between Iraqi Arabs and the Marines resulted in the deaths of at least seven Iraqis near the city center.

    U.S. Central Command's Brig. Gen. Vincent Brooks said Wednesday that American troops are working to calm the situation in Mosul.

    Brooks said that the Marines opened fire only after taking fire from gunmen in the crowd.

    "Fire was directed at the Marines and Special Operations forces in this complex," Brooks said at a briefing Wednesday. "It was aimed fire, and aimed fire was returned against some of the demonstrators, against some of the agitated persons who were now climbing over the wall of the compound."

    A Kurdish official said the crowd became infuriated when U.S. troops set up offices in Mosul's main government building, raising the American flag.

    A witness said, "A member of the opposition tried to make a speech, saying the Americans are democracy. But the crowd threw stones at him, then the Americans opened fire."

    The crowd also protested Mishaan Jabouri, an Iraqi opposition leader who denies having the official title of governor. Kurds accuse him of being American-appointed. Jabouri, the leader of a Syrian-based Iraqi opposition group, recently returned to Mosul.

    "No to the Americans. No to the governor," the crowd chanted, the official told CNN. Some said, "The time for jihad has come."

    In Baghdad, residents saw a new U.S.-trained police force on the streets early Wednesday morning as soldiers from the Free Iraqi Forces moved into the capital city to restore security.

    About 120 soldiers arrived with AK-47s to prevent looting and other crimes.

    U.S. Special Forces have trained about 700 of the Free Iraqi Forces. In the past few days, the Iraqi soldiers have patrolled cities in predominantly Shiite areas in south-central Iraq, where they have been largely welcomed.

    The rest of the Iraqi forces are expected to be deployed to Baghdad in the coming days.

    U.S. Marines raided two Baath Party headquarters in Baghdad overnight, detaining 26 people, said Marines spokesman Capt. Joe Plenzler. Three people were detained at the headquarters in Saddam City, a suburb, and 23 others were seized at the headquarters in the city center, where two Iraqis were injured. It was unclear how they were injured.

    U.S. soldiers also were standing guard Wednesday at Iraq's National Museum, where widespread looting broke out after the fall of Baghdad last week.

    On Tuesday, Iraqi opposition leaders and U.S. officials held the first of several meetings aimed at charting Iraq's future just days after a U.S.-led invasion toppled Saddam Hussein's regime.

    The conference, however, was not without controversy.

    Before the session, Shiite protesters in nearby Nasiriya vented their anger over possibly not having a voice in the debate. Several leading anti-Saddam groups, including the Supreme Council for Islamic Revolution in Iraq, boycotted the gathering. (Full story)

    Meanwhile, U.S. military sources Tuesday stepped back from claims made a day earlier that coalition troops had found 11 mobile chemical and biological laboratories buried south of Baghdad.

    The 11 cargo containers were filled with new laboratory equipment apparently intended to make conventional weapons, said Chief Warrant Officer 2 Monte Gonzalez, the head of the team brought in to examine them.

    "Based on what we've seen, the containers are full of millions of dollars' worth of high-tech equipment," he said. "It possibly has a dual use. But it does not appear to be weapons of mass destruction." (Full story)

    Meanwhile, Italy will seek to extradite Abu Abbas, the mastermind of the 1985 hijacking of the Italian cruise ship Achille Lauro, Italian Justice Minister Roberto Castelli said Wednesday. U.S. Special Forces captured Abbas, a convicted Palestinian terrorist, on the outskirts of Baghdad this week. During the hijacking, Leon Klinghoffer, 69, an American, was killed and dumped into the sea. (Full story)

    Other developments

    Sgt. Willis William with the 15th Marine Expeditionary Unit shakes hands with an Iraqi boy during a patrol at a park in the southern Iraqi city of Nasiriya.
    • Coalition commander Gen. Tommy Franks is in Baghdad, Central Command officials said Wednesday.

    • U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell said the United States has concerns about two of Iraq's neighbors -- Syria and Iran -- but that "there is no war plan" to attack other countries. The White House accuses Syria of producing chemical weapons, harboring senior members of Saddam's regime and supporting terrorism -- allegations that Syria denies. (Full story)

    • In northern Iraq, U.S. troops shut down a pipeline Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld said was supplying oil to Syria in violation of U.N. sanctions. "I cannot assure you that all illegal oil flowing from Iraq into Syria is shut off," Rumsfeld said. "I just hope it is."

    • Westwood One has begun relaying two hours of live news in Iraq and plans to offer a lengthier program called "Iraq and the World" in conjunction with news networks, a company spokesman said. The U.S. government-funded show will provide uncensored, translated editions of the U.S. networks' nightly news broadcasts and programming from the Fox News Channel and Public Broadcasting Service, said Norm Pattiz, Westwood founder and chairman.

    • The former head of Saddam's feared Mukhabbarat intelligence service, Farouk Hijazi, is in the Syrian capital of Damascus, U.S. officials said Tuesday. Hijazi is suspected of involvement in Iraqi intelligence's unsuccessful plot to kill former President Bush in Kuwait in 1993. The Syrian Foreign Ministry on Wednesday denied that Hijazi is in Syria.

    • President Bush spoke by telephone Tuesday with French President Jacques Chirac, the first conversation between the two leaders since the beginning of the war in Iraq. France adamantly opposed the military action. During the call, which Chirac initiated, the French president told Bush that he wanted to play a "pragmatic role in reconstruction events in Iraq," White House spokesman Ari Fleischer said. (Full story)

    • About 30 Iraqi and world experts will meet at the U.N. Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization's headquarters in Paris, France, to evaluate the extent of looting in Iraqi museums and how to preserve Iraq's cultural heritage. U.S. Central Command acknowledged a "void in security," saying the U.S. military failed to anticipate "the riches of Iraq would be looted by the Iraqi people." (Full story)

    CNN Correspondents Christiane Amanpour, Jim Clancy, Michael Holmes, Tom Mintier, Nic Robertson and Barbara Starr contributed to this report.

  9. #3929
    Senior Member Hellsbellboy's Avatar
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    Originally posted by david petley
    But it was hardly a "clean as a whistle", clear-cut victory. When a leader gets power with a minority of popular support, regardless of how the laws actually allow it to happen, then there must always a slight aroma of doubt about how a system, that allows such a situation, could still exist in a country that purports to be representitive of the people.

    dp
    Yeah funny how people get educated REAL fast after their canidate loses. Elections have been very close in serveral western countries these last few years..

  10. #3930
    I Mastered Dead Technology TallGuyLittleCar's Avatar
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    Originally posted by david petley
    But it was hardly a "clean as a whistle", clear-cut victory. When a leader gets power with a minority of popular support, regardless of how the laws actually allow it to happen, then there must always a slight aroma of doubt about how a system, that allows such a situation, could still exist in a country that purports to be representitive of the people.

    dp
    it was clean as a whistle. the United States is a nation ruled by law(or at least is supposed to be). It is not a nation ruled by the tyranny of the majority. that is mob rule.


    G.W. is not the first president to win without the majority of popular vote.
    ONLY RON PAUL AND ALUMINUM FOIL CAN SAVE YOU NOW!
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  11. #3931
    curmudgeon swampy's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Hellsbellboy
    Where do you get your news from??? I read on many sites was 7 people killed, the Marine's were being shot at.. not shots fired in the air, but aimed shots.. People were seen in the crowed carrying weapons. Get your facts straight. I know of no country that tolerants Protestors shooting at the authorities.. freedom of speech or not..

    check the time I posted.

    there are these things called timezones, you are on a different one to me.

    I therefor get up earlier than you.

    This morning I got up and read the reuters site earlier than you.

    When you were still tucked up in your little bed I read this story, which stated 15 had bee shot dead.

    At that time it was breaking news.

    I posted that breaking news.

    time passes.


    tick



    tick



    tick


    More facts come in about the story.



    tick





    tick




    you wake up from dreamland.



    tick




    tick




    you read the news and my post (from some 8 hours ago and jump to conclusions that I need to "Get [my] facts straight"
    "They're very much like scruffy pigs to look at, and they've got big, knobbly warts and lumps all over their long, hairy faces. They are very, very ugly indeed..."

  12. #3932
    Senior Member Hellsbellboy's Avatar
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    Originally posted by swampy
    check the time I posted.

    there are these things called timezones, you are on a different one to me.

    I therefor get up earlier than you.

    This morning I got up and read the reuters site earlier than you.

    When you were still tucked up in your little bed I read this story, which stated 15 had bee shot dead.

    At that time it was breaking news.

    I posted that breaking news.

    time passes.


    tick



    tick



    tick


    More facts come in about the story.



    tick





    tick




    you wake up from dreamland.



    tick




    tick




    you read the news and my post (from some 8 hours ago and jumpt to conclusions that I need to "Get [my] facts straight"


    I
    hehehe use initial sources and get burned... as has been stated many times in this thread, have to be careful about using those first stories... but i'm sure since it was negative news about America, you couldn't wait to jump alllll over that... here's your
    Last edited by Hellsbellboy; 04-16-2003 at 11:39 AM.

  13. #3933
    Aquaverse gdstudios's Avatar
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    Originally posted by TallGuyLittleCar
    it was clean as a whistle. the United States is a nation ruled by law(or at least is supposed to be). It is not a nation ruled by the tyranny of the majority. that is mob rule.


    G.W. is not the first president to win without the majority of popular vote.
    Yeah DP, what he said. That election was only a mess because a certain candidate - not naminggore names - decided that it would be fair to throw out military ballots from overseas, but recount the most urban counties in the state. C'mon, now. Liberals creating class warfare? Nah, never.

  14. #3934
    Banned indivision's Avatar
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    Originally posted by TallGuyLittleCar
    G.W. is not the first president to win without the majority of popular vote.
    Which was the last to win that way? Out of curiosity.

  15. #3935
    I Mastered Dead Technology TallGuyLittleCar's Avatar
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    Presidents with less than the majority of the popular vote:
    Abraham Lincoln
    Woodrow Wilson
    Harry Truman
    Bill Clinton

    Presidents that won even though the recieved fewer popular votes than their challengers:
    Rutherford B. Hayes
    Benjamin Harrison
    George W. Bush
    ONLY RON PAUL AND ALUMINUM FOIL CAN SAVE YOU NOW!
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  16. #3936
    supervillain gerbick's Avatar
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    damn. I could have sworn that Nixon was on that list...

    [ Hello ] | [ gerbick ] | [ Ω ]

  17. #3937
    curmudgeon swampy's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Hellsbellboy
    hehehe use initial sources and get burned... as has been stated many times in this thread, have to be careful about using those first stories... but i'm sure since it was negative news about America, you couldn't wait to jump alllll over that... here's your
    yep, that's me, never criticise anyone but America.

    oh yeah, I almost forgot:

    and for the record US admits to mosul killings

    A US commander has admitted that American troops did shoot and kill a number of Iraqis during a protest in the northern city of Mosul.

    Brigadier-General Vince Brooks said US marines and special forces soldiers fired at demonstrators on Tuesday after they came under attack from people shooting guns and throwing rocks.
    Seems the military likes to keep changing it's story so as to fudge the "facts", so I guess the only people to "get burned" were the Iraqi's who took their new found promises of freedom at the military's word.
    Last edited by swampy; 04-16-2003 at 03:57 PM.
    "They're very much like scruffy pigs to look at, and they've got big, knobbly warts and lumps all over their long, hairy faces. They are very, very ugly indeed..."

  18. #3938
    curmudgeon swampy's Avatar
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    bush calls for sanctions to be lifted. Does this mean the oil pipeline to Syria that contravened those sanctions will be reopened.
    "They're very much like scruffy pigs to look at, and they've got big, knobbly warts and lumps all over their long, hairy faces. They are very, very ugly indeed..."

  19. #3939
    I Mastered Dead Technology TallGuyLittleCar's Avatar
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    yeah but syria will have to pay the market price for the oil.
    ONLY RON PAUL AND ALUMINUM FOIL CAN SAVE YOU NOW!
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  20. #3940
    curmudgeon swampy's Avatar
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    How much did they pay before ?
    "They're very much like scruffy pigs to look at, and they've got big, knobbly warts and lumps all over their long, hairy faces. They are very, very ugly indeed..."

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