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Thread: Hello / How's Professional Animation Done?

  1. #1
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    Hello / How's Professional Animation Done?

    Howdy, folks. I'm Krak, from Ohio.

    Ummm....how's real animation done usually? With cel sheets?
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  2. #2
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    Replies? Anyone?
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  3. #3
    Senior Member CartoonLarry's Avatar
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    Here is a glossary of terms.
    http://www.vintageip.com/Term.html

    You might get more responses from forums like http://www.animationnation.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi or http://forums.awn.com on the topic of traditional animation.

    Hope this helps

  4. #4
    Moderator - Anime Curator Naldoman's Avatar
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    Do any major animation studios still use cel sheets? I thought everyone went to digital transfer of the pencils and computer inking.

    Makes me wonder what has become of the companies that provided cel and cel paints, light boards, register plates, etc...

    And of course the armies of people who painted all those cells...?

    When I toured Fuji Studios in Tokyo back in the 80's, a cell painter gave me a hand-fan because I was sweating to death in the summer heat and humidity.

    Where is that cell painter now, I wonder..
    Naldoman

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    I believe that there's still some studios in Japan that uses cel sheets still. I know Studio Ghibli's been using more and more computers, but I don't think they always do all out digital.

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    Peacemaker dementia7's Avatar
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    The last numbers I heard was something like 90 percent or 95 percent are digital. Drawing is always there so lightboards and all that goofy stuff but more people are coloring on computer and the scanning in mattes or using 3d for the background stuff. Digital is a 100 times faster and looks better. This information I got form the Xtras on the Blood the Last Vampire DVD so...this is not opinion based.

    The fact of the matter is, once again, is that paper will really always be a part of drawing. Just maybe not peop[le painting on clear cells with an airbrush...man that's just insane to think about.

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  7. #7
    Moderator CNO's Avatar
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    That sounds more like a profit-driven studio perspective - I imagine the numbers are skewed the other way in the field of independent or foreign animation projects.

    Besides, there's some techniques (ie. frosted cels, or some of the techniques achieved in the original Fantasia) that don't translate well to the computer.

    Digital Ink & Paint is commonly used across major studios, however (which is probably a good move - the original celluloid sheets used in animation were quite prone to catching fire, if I'm not mistaken), which is quick and easier to marry with digital animation (unfortunately, the talent of the animators has not caught up, and 3d usually ends up looking terribly out of place or fake).

    Of course, it also means it's damned near impossible to break into the industry by accepting a job as a cel washer nowadays...

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    i think most productions do still use cel animation... although not for very much animation. However i do remember seeing how they used softimage and cel paintings and combined them to make a stunning scene. ofcourse this can only be done if both the animator as wel as the 3d artist collaborate close together.

    there are numerous ways to make animations. But i think one of the easiest cheapest ways to start with has always been celluloid. Although digital may seem easier in the long run. not all people have that kind of cash, and ofcourse the renderpower to use it. However using larger companies do ofcourse have that money.

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    Man I had this long like 2 page response to this but...I'm widdeling it down to a paragraphg or two...or trying to. To answer the question in my opinion. Animation is done in many ways. The pros use digital because that's the future. yeah there are people who use old methods but hey...there's people who drive old cars too. Sure there's the argument that computers are expensive and all that...but then if that was ultimately the case, viewing this post would be impossible as it is on a computer. The power opf a computer...ehh, I started 4 yars ago on a pentium 90 laptop I got from a friend with 94 megs of ram and 2 gb harddrive running windows 95. I ran lightwave 4.5 and flash 2 rendering out scenes while I drew on paper. Got a scanner from wal mart with my paycheck of 90 bucks a week from Hollywood video.

    I was using a 56k modem and the list goes on. Ultimately I set my mind to one thing. The future. The future is digital. While people constantly told me the way to do things was to drawn on paper then scan that in and color it in photoshop. I drew in flash with a mouse. Those same people are still using the same methods but where I made my vision a reality, they do it for a hobby.

    Now of course if hobby is the end result then yeah...cells are fun. A painting on a transparency looks neat and people at cons make loads of cash off of them so cool. But take those same folks and move them to a real production and their skills become somewhat dated. Not saying anything about folks who use cells but if the question is how to do a professional animation. Working digital to start gets you miles farther than starting on cells in terms of making a career out of it.

    Totally not pointing the finger at anyone just that this particualr subject of the old methods and new methods comes up alot when i do lectures where hundreds of people go out and buy the How to Draw Manga books and like ask me what type of aiurbrush I use and all that. I point out that the books were made in the 80's and early 90's thyen mention flash and the computer...and I draw a field of blank stares.

    d7soapbox
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  10. #10
    Moderator CNO's Avatar
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    I don't disagree with you that the future is digital, but I think that it will be a melding of digital and traditional methods - relying entirely on digital is a crutch.

    I disagree with your assertion that the 'pros use digital' - a typical animated feature is produced by a team of people, and an animator can quite happily work entirely analogue before that work is brought into a computer. I know guys who could kick out a few feet of animation on 12field peg-punched animation paper a lot faster than a drawing (with half the character) could be produced in the computer. Beyond that, I have yet to see more than a handful of really convincing 3d animations.

    I'd argue that a lot of the really great digital animations out now are the result of someone pioneering a new technique - studios producing filters to make 3d animations look like watercolors, for example. It requires a different way of using the computer as a tool to produce a new type of animation.

    All that said, a true animator will choose their style in the way that best tells a story and plays with their strength, not ruling out any methods, whether they be stop-motion, cel, 3d, sand, or other types of animation.

    Digital may be the future, but most people's first experience with animation involved making a flipbook in the corner of a book's pages.

    Digital has it's place, but it definately hasn't replaced all other forms of animation, at least not in all but the most frugal animation studios (like the big ones who pride themselves on having only 1 full-time animator).

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    i think this discussion is much like foto's are outdated and videocams are going to be the future. It is what many thought back then but hey foto's are still a big part of our lives. not to mention that the resolution of a foto is waaay better then video's and that the foto technique is still advancing even now.

    the same can be said for cel and digital animation. True that digital can be easier. However the assumption you make is that cel techniques have come to a complete stop, and that noone is trying to improve any techniques related to cel. Sure digital can be handy but there will always be a place for cel.

    it will cooexist like email and mail have coexisted, like cars and public transportation, and ofcourse like foto's and video.

  12. #12
    Moderator CNO's Avatar
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    I think that's a pretty good analogy, Justice. And if I might take it just a step further, even though a lot of pro photographers use Photoshop for image manipulation, and a variety of tools from digital processing to image scanners, most are still using analogue cameras and chemicals to process the resulting images. And while lots of hobbyists have darkrooms, a real professional photographer would never rely entirely on digital techniques, just as a real web designer should understand the underlying code behind their projects.

    I suppose it all comes down to understanding fundamentals. Though feel free to take all of this with a grain of salt, as it is just my opinion.

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    Bill Plympton mentions some interesting things about this as well. He claims its cheaper for him to use cels, rather than digital. In addition, he notes that selling cels can be used for fund raising/making extra money - where as digital prints aren't nearly as special or compelling to purchase for the collector.

    I use alot of digital painting - but alot of the animation I've done since graduating has been in flash for the web. I did do a tv commercial immedidiately after graduating using scanned sketches and photoshop. Didn't know tech well enough, and while some of it turned out pretty good - it was more pixelated than it needed to be if I'd done it in a similar but better manner.

    I've never painted on cels myself. I've either done pencil test. Or colored pencils on paper for coloring. Or digital. Still - MANY places still use cels. They aren't gone- but as they die more and more you'll see various things happen: the more professional supplies will either drop in price, dissappear, or potential raise in price.

    Its sad to see this happen in many ways. With digital camcorders and cameras, film cameras are dropping - but printing is going to go up. Motion picture film prices went through a pricing skyrocketting years ago making it much more difficult for low budget indies to make films. On the other hand more and more video and digital video festivals are popping up, making the alternative more attractive.

    We'll see.
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    Moderator - Anime Curator Naldoman's Avatar
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    Quite a roundtable going here. I can see the woman who gave me a fan sitting pretty as the owner of a animation supply house, marketing traditinal wares at premium prices, for people who must do things the "traditional way". She has lots of stories to tell, including one about a group of curious foreigners who toured a certain studio and nearly passed out from the heat!!



    The guy at the top is airbrushing chrome on the grill of a Mercedes. His burning cigarette is mere centimeters from flammable cels, paint, paper and other employees.
    The bottom photo shows the true glamour of animation work---clutter!!! Ventilation is not good. Some painters wear filter masks. Start cleaning cels, CNO!!!
    Last edited by Naldoman; 04-10-2003 at 12:33 AM.
    Naldoman

  15. #15
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    Originally posted by dementia7
    I was using a 56k modem and the list goes on. Ultimately I set my mind to one thing. The future. The future is digital. While people constantly told me the way to do things was to drawn on paper then scan that in and color it in photoshop. I drew in flash with a mouse. Those same people are still using the same methods but where I made my vision a reality, they do it for a hobby.
    You do that too?????

    I draw my pictures, scan them, and trace them into Flash. It's very tedious using the line and pencil tool to trace stuff. Is there an easier way? Like Photoshop? Too bad I suck big time at it.

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  16. #16
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    well I heard the best vector animations are manually drawn frame by frame

    I guess buying a pad would be easier

  17. #17
    Character Animator The_e-Tahn's Avatar
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    actually yeah, a tablet does help... a LOT. even for simple things (moving things around in a scene in Flash) are made much simpler with a tablet.
    I've never really done any pro animation before (well flip-books, but that's not pro, and some minor Flash stuff,) so I don't really know what to say really.... I'd go digitial, yes, it makes life easy.

  18. #18
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    Retro Future?

    To me at least, the best way to trace your pictures into flash is with the line tool, and the arrow tool to bend lines. But in later version of flash (flash 5 at least) it seems like sometimes your lines don't quite connect. Has anybody else ever had this happen? You draw a line, and draw another line, but if you use the arrow tool to pull at the point between your two lines, they come apart. But if you snap it onto the other line, they actually connect, and drag together! The snap-to function of flash5 doesn't seem to work very well (there might be something in the preferences on this, but nothing I changed every made this work right). But when you fill the shape on "close small gaps" it makes a line between your two points. This ends up with more complex vector, and slower playback. And it's time-consuming to fix.

    That's why I use flash 2 to do my lineart. No kidding. I use a free copy of flash 2 that came with a British magazine as a coverdisk. I don't know when they changed their snap-to-vector to a more lazy format, but flash 2 connects the lines correctly the first time. The snap-to function just seems more bold in flash 2 than in flash 5 (Yup, that's the jump I upgraded to when flash 5 came out). Maybe people complained about it and they scaled it back, but for tracing, nothing beats it.

    Anybody else do this? (I'm guessing not...)
    -GSM (Tim)

  19. #19
    Moderator CNO's Avatar
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    Re: Retro Future?

    Originally posted by Party2000
    Anybody else do this? (I'm guessing not...)
    I use Illustrator for inking, partially because I am more familiar with it, partially because it helps me optimize the files, but mostly because I can't stand the way Flash deals with outlines.

  20. #20
    Senior Member DayDream's Avatar
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    That's the main thing for me as well the poor handling of outlines and the lack of control over the piece in flash...

    I use CorelDraw ( out of habbit and yes I know what most think it is so inferior but it works fine for me ) and create the outlines there in the width I need them...

    Keeps the files easy to work with and free of outlines...

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