2advanced.com

[myounis]

The most important thing is validation

Technically, that is the LEAST important thing. Wait what? Think about what you are saying for a second.

[tom314]

I can make very VALID sites that are stupid, boring etc..

or..

make something useful, interesting, catchy.. but not 100% validated..

mmm, lemme think.

further: I like the matrix-comparison in terms of style and sequel-theory..

[tpnovak]

Originally posted by kasracer
tpnovak, Did you even read any of my replies?

The most important thing is validation, which none of your websites do. This is 1 of the major things I hate about almost all webdesign companies. They think they know how to use flash or html, ect... and then they DON'T code it correctly. This really just pisses me off.

I seriously wish your coders at 2advanced would go to www.w3c.org and RE-LEARN how to code in HTML (or better yet, XHTML).

Are you serious? I'd really like to be a fly on the wall the first time you sit across the table from a client and explain:

"It's not the quality of layout and design, nor the impressions you'll achieve, nor even the return on investment calculations... THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IS VALIDATION. Validation will win your site monumental acclaim and more importantly respect from HTML coders all over the world. So in conclusion, Mr. Client, you should choose me as your vendor. I FULLY understand what it takes to make a site validate through the w3c.org validator... This is what differentiates my company... I HAVE the skills."

I'd take a minute and stop to realize that the w3c is not an infallible standard authority and NO standard authority has ever been recognized for moving with and degree of fervor. For years throughout my career, I have had the 'pleasure' of dealing with technical authorities such as ISO, ANSI and IEEE. The end result is that either you as a professional take what is important and build upon that (in order to define a competitive edge); Or, you simply succumb to being one of the following masses and see how quickly you can achieve Chapter 13.

[TheOriginalFlashDavo]

Have to agree with Tony on this one (I'm sure that will make him sleep better at night! ). As much as anyone tries to make their code as compliant as possible, the truth is that 96+% of users are using IE, while 100% compliant code is catering for Netscape, Opera...etc. So, does that mean you decide not to use some of the more advanced features that IE has to offer, simply because it won't be "compliant"? Or do you accept some degree of non-compliancy in order to deliver the most effective online solution?

If I had to choose (and fair enough, in some cases you can do both) I know which I'd go for.

Same as with the PC/Mac issue. There are times when I just don't want to "dumb down" my code to cater for everything and everyone, and if that makes more business sense then so be it.

[No-Tec]

Originally posted by tpnovak
Are you serious? I'd really like to be a fly on the wall the first time you sit across the table from a client and explain:

"It's not the quality of layout and design, nor the impressions you'll achieve, nor even the return on investment calculations... THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IS VALIDATION. Validation will win your site monumental acclaim and more importantly respect from HTML coders all over the world. So in conclusion, Mr. Client, you should choose me as your vendor. I FULLY understand what it takes to make a site validate through the w3c.org validator... This is what differentiates my company... I HAVE the skills."

I'd take a minute and stop to realize that the w3c is not an infallible standard authority and NO standard authority has ever been recognized for moving with and degree of fervor. For years throughout my career, I have had the 'pleasure' of dealing with technical authorities such as ISO, ANSI and IEEE. The end result is that either you as a professional take what is important and build upon that (in order to define a competitive edge); Or, you simply succumb to being one of the following masses and see how quickly you can achieve Chapter 13.

owned.

[stevietat2]

I am astounded time and again when professionals in the design community completely forget their role as marketeers and lose connection with time-tested princples such as using "hype" as an ice breaker to sell a message. Gratuitous qualifiers such as those above have LONG SINCE played an important role in selling a product. Should we have instead indicated, "Prophecy will be just another run-of-the-mill website". That sure doesn't sound very impactful or motivating, now does it? What makes statements on verbiage (like your statement above) so very distressing is that we as professionals in or studying this business should FUNDAMENTALLY understand the merits of marketing and selling - Afterall, this is what we do for a living! My god, please don't tell me you recommend to your clients NOT to describe their products or services as "The Best" or "The Most Advanced"

you make a good point here, and I see how it is unfair to slam the site, when you guys are just trying to do some good marketing.

However, suppose you have some guy who builds his own pretty mediocre to bad flash site, and on it he makes claims about "being the best and being on the forefront of innovative techonology"

Whereas the more experienced flashkit design surfer knows the guy is just blowing hot steam, shouldn't we just let it go because he's doing what he should be doing, that is marketing himself well? Although we should recognize this, I'm sure most people on here, myself included, would tell this guy he's deluded should he post his site up with such claims. I'm just wondering if you think that's right or not?

This isn't saying your new v4 is like some bad mediocre newb creation, but that where do we draw the line of saying someone is just doing good marketing, or blowing out hot air? Because the way I take it, anyone should be able to market their site with "abstract" claims, such as being innovative and amazing.

Anways, you make an interesting point

[kony2003]

Originally posted by No-Tec
owned.

lmao, yes i 2nd that, great words tony.

[No-Tec]

Originally posted by stevietat2
you make a good point here, and I see how it is unfair to slam the site, when you guys are just trying to do some good marketing.

However, suppose you have some guy who builds his own pretty mediocre to bad flash site, and on it he makes claims about "being the best and being on the forefront of innovative techonology"

Whereas the more experienced flashkit design surfer knows the guy is just blowing hot steam, shouldn't we just let it go because he's doing what he should be doing, that is marketing himself well? Although we should recognize this, I'm sure most people on here, myself included, would tell this guy he's deluded should he post his site up with such claims. I'm just wondering if you think that's right or not?

This isn't saying your new v4 is like some bad mediocre newb creation, but that where do we draw the line of saying someone is just doing good marketing, or blowing out hot air? Because the way I take it, anyone should be able to market their site with "abstract" claims, such as being innovative and amazing.

Anways, you make an interesting point

very good question. I would like to hear the answer as well.

[tpnovak]

Originally posted by stevietat2
However, suppose you have some guy who builds his own pretty mediocre to bad flash site, and on it he makes claims about "being the best and being on the forefront of innovative techonology"

This isn't saying your new v4 is like some bad mediocre newb creation, but that where do we draw the line of saying someone is just doing good marketing, or blowing out hot air? Because the way I take it, anyone should be able to market their site with "abstract" claims, such as being innovative and amazing.

Right you are! Anyone should have the ability to let their promotional creativity come out (although I should add the caveat: To the extent that laws aren't being broken). Remember that with hype, it is generally a consumer opinion on the matter that prevails. As you can follow from the comments on this thread and the history of 2A threads, there are those that LOVE 2A, and those that HATE 2A - both are opinions and both are valid for that reason. So, who's to say what is the "Best" or "Most Innovative", etc. Again, these are opinions. (Has there ever been a "best of" thread where EVERYONE was in complete agreement here?)

I'm less concerned with the Design community in this instance, than I am with the people who will ultimately purchase our services. Those that have little to no frame of reference will happen across 2A for the first time (it happens hundreds of times each day) and will read a comment like "Best" or "Most Innovative" and will walk away in COMPLETE AGREEMENT. Hence, the comments serve their original purpose. The mistake is to assume that the design and flash community were the intended audience for such hype.

So back to your question about some newbie's site? If a client happens accross his/her site and come to the conclusion that it IS the BEST or MOST INNOVATIVE... Then, it served it's purpose irregardless of what his peers may believe. If it keeps resulting in business, then something must be right, and perhaps his peers may be missing something? Interesting.

[Nionicle]

that is interesting.

Just another random question novak.

Do you even use your mod skills on this forum?
Just wondering how you came to be mod.


hope this doesnt sound rude.

[rooney]

Originally posted by tpnovak
we have seen 4 million hits come through

How many visitors/uniques does that equate to? I'm never sure what people mean when they use the word hits. People's interpretation of the word seems to vary.

[FLASHLEVEL]

Originally posted by rooney
How many visitors/uniques does that equate to? I'm never sure what people mean when they use the word hits. People's interpretation of the word seems to vary.

I guess, unless 2A has like 15 servers to host their site ,they mean HITS as in page requests, not unique visitors.

Yahoo.com gets about 2 million unique hits a day imagine that.

[mr. freak]

Google hosts 100 MILLION SEARCHES per day. Oy!
Of course, many of those don't involve actually going to google.com (like the Google toolbar, the Safari search box, etc), but still, that's a billion searches in 10 days. Whoa.

(ok, that was totally on-topic)

[Canadaherp]

moo

[Olli_Budworth]

Originally posted by tpnovak
Ok... It's time for to chime in... I love all the thoughtful critiques that everyone has offered, but I think this is a good one for me to throw a few alternative thoughts on. My apologizes in advance Olli, your response just prompted a few of my hot buttons...

That's fine, i'm glad you answered, albeit your responses verge on being a bit arrogant, but i'm gonna reply anyway.

I am astounded time and again when professionals in the design community completely forget their role as marketeers and lose connection with time-tested princples such as using "hype" as an ice breaker to sell a message.

I'm sorry, but I would never say this about a website:

2Advanced reveals “Prophecy” v.4, a destination that will arouse inner senses and emotions and awaken visitors to the possibilities for the future

Sounds like you're implying that the new site is designed to turn people on or something, and as we all know, there are 1000's of sites out there that are good for that.

Should we have instead indicated, "Prophecy will be just another run-of-the-mill website". That sure doesn't sound very impactful or motivating, now does it?

No, you're not wrong, I just think that if you're gonna promote a product, at least be realistic, how many people do you think were actually 'aroused' by the new site?

What makes statements on verbiage (like your statement above) so very distressing is that we as professionals in or studying this business should FUNDAMENTALLY understand the merits of marketing and selling - Afterall, this is what we do for a living! My god, please don't tell me you recommend to your clients NOT to describe their products or services as "The Best" or "The Most Advanced"

I work in a large Marketing studio and am degree educated, so I know that I know about marketing, another good merit of marketing a product is to be honest about it, saying that it will be "a destination that will arouse inner senses" is, in my opinion, a bit leading.

Apart from the fact that I can't understand how you give rise to the superiority of a game interface or a DVD OVER a website...

That wasn't my point. My point was, that the whole look of the site IN MY OPINION would suit a game, much better than it does a web site - the whole look and feel - you run the site on anything slower than a 18.ghz p4 or equiv.a_lent and it's painful - try it - see for yourself.

I think it's a feat of engineering, the technology and back end is something amazing, and revolutionary, but I also think it's difficult to work out where to go, the text is hard to read, there are loads of parts of it that look clickable but aren't and so on.......

My first suggestion to anyone seeking success, who loves to design and who takes pride in their personal work: It should NEVER BE 'JUST A WEBSITE'. Once you submit to mindless, lackluster statements such as this, you might as well then also come to the conclusion that your work is 'JUST A JOB'.

Not at all, i'm far from having that opinion, I still retain that you should be realistic, go ahead, say you're the best, don't let anyone stop you, i'm far from lacklustre, i'm just not into telling my clients that their new websites will "arouse" them.

However, for those who fall to the other side of the coin, and believe that their work is NOT 'JUST A WEBSITE'... You will be the ones to achieve the greatest personal satisfaction at the end of the day. I believe K10K recently echoed this very quote as well, on a newsfeed item about the Neverrain Press Release... Well, I may take somewhat of a thrashing here myself, but how truely sad is that? To be engaged in this business, but not understand the use of Hype in a Press Release, and then to suggest that your job is mediocre at best...

Don't get me wrong, I have a very high regard for 2A, and all of the wrok that they have done, every site oozes innovation and graphical superiority, and 99.9% of the time, receives a lot of accolade from the flash community - myself included, I still however retain that I think the press release was over the top.

Absolutely not an Oversight. Prophecy fits perfectly in a 1024 width (maximized) browser, so that you won't get the horizontal scroll bars. So someone enlighten me on the correct number of pixels to allocate for height to ensure 100% of the browsers out there do not ever see a vertical scroll bar. Think about it... Which IE Toolbars do you have turned on? Standard Buttons? Address Bar? Links? Does the visitor have any CUSTOM toolbars? Should sites NOT scroll up and down on the Home Page? (And if so, who is going to tell Flashkit, Yahoo, MSN, EBay, Amazon and the MILLIONS of other sites that scroll up and down?).

Must just be me then, up and down is generally accepted my most, I was just surprised when I got scroll bars on my laptop - running 1024 x 768 - I don't in IE, but do in opera, real and mozilla.

As for this business regarding 10x7... First off, you may want to start by considering my (2Advanced's) business demographics a little more carefully - pretend I'm a client. Do you believe that 2Advanced is designing and targeting EVERYONE on the Internet? Is it always best policy to only build sites that target the largest number of people? I agree that for those who don't understand precisely who their customer is, the best policy is to target everyone. As a going business concern, I can assure you that I know exactly who we are targeting, why we are targeting them and what our goals for achievement are. I appreciate anyone who is concerned about 10x7, but based upon the demographic that we have been collecting since V.3's launch, our choice of resolution is VERY calculated.

I find that a bit arrogant to be honest, translated you're basically saying that the only people you're targeting are ones you want business from, which from a business point of view, does make sense, but on the whole PR side, doesn't shine too highly in my opinon, I think websites should cater for everyone, looks good on you that way.

Speed of a site is absolutely an issue, and currently performance is very sad. But, this will soon pass. Unfortunately, with us currently a mere 1.5 days past our official release (and in light of the traffic paterns I detailed above), Server response is just going to be on the slow side while as the smoke clears a bit. I do apologize and hope that we don't put anyone off too much, but the concept of getting an LB and/or extra servers in place at this juncture would be a bad investment.

Was also talking about speed of it running on anything less than a high-end PC - you've said you're only targeting potential clients with your new site - many companies are still only running machines as slow as P3's.... see my point?

Finaly, for those who don't like the site due to personal taste, or for aesthetic reasons, or for usability reasons of your own... I completely respect this and your opinion. For those who feel the need to bash, thrash, slander, libel, etc... Just remember, this is 'JUST A JOB' and it is 'JUST A WEBSITE'

I'm not slgging off the new site, I haven't actually said anything detrimental about it, i've been very careful not too, i've only voiced my opinion, and all of my criticism has been constructive. If you want to believe that your website will give people a hard-on, then you believe that.

My final word - I regard 2A as one of the best design companies out there, it is blatantly clear that you have the skills to continually design, produce and innovate some of the finest websitres around, I just think that the new site was over-hyped.

[Johnny Shiro]

This thread is an examample of why i ain`t posting my site in here , if i get famous i am not sure i can handle the pressure :P

j/k or am i ? dunno it is early in the morning

[bvgroote]

Originally posted by CDP-Design
lol another linkage between matrix reloaded and 2advanced I think hype spoils it you build up too many expectations i think thats one reason why i didnt bother to read this thread before the launch.

IthinkYouShouldLearnToUseFullSTopsSoYouDontRunOutO fBreath!

[bvgroote]

*patiently waits for Tonys response*

[No-Tec]

Originally posted by bvgroote
*patiently waits for Tonys response*

please refer to my footer.

[kidpablo]

2Advanced reveals “Prophecy” v.4, a destination that will arouse inner senses and emotions and awaken visitors to the possibilities for the future

Haha, that's poetry! I've been enlightened!