Is the Web-Site Design Industry Dead?

**hurricaneone** · 09-03-2003, 09:48 PM

Originally posted by Seldudet
I despise that quote also, it disappoints me that the yankeedoodles still think of us like that, but you guys well...your policemen always seems to be just a little overweight and eating s like chief wiggum in the simspons!

Now for that game of cricket....

I was under the impression that it was just the Americans that were sensitive like this, but it seems the British skin is wearing just as thin these days.

I'm English and I couldn't give a rat's hairy butt what stereotypes people like to further about my or any other nationality. More to my displeasure is that I hate tea and despise cricket, so instead, I'm off to the pub to get a skinful of lager and then I'm going to watch a football and kick the crap out of someone who supports the other team.

Now that's livin'.

**Flash Kev** · 09-04-2003, 06:17 AM

Ohh the ironey, im watchin the cricket in the background.

**Seldudet** · 09-04-2003, 07:51 AM

I was under the impression that it was just the Americans that were sensitive like this, but it seems the British skin is wearing just as thin these days.

I'm English and I couldn't give a rat's hairy butt what stereotypes people like to further about my or any other nationality. More to my displeasure is that I hate tea and despise cricket, so instead, I'm off to the pub to get a skinful of lager and then I'm going to watch a football and kick the crap out of someone who supports the other team.

Now that's livin'.

Larger Lout(is that how it's spelt?) and Footie Hooligan. Gosh you sooo do not fit into that current stereotypical british male category

Isn't it fun watching our boys lose at a sport we invented? Gosh I love cricket!

**dlowe93** · 09-05-2003, 12:32 AM

Originally posted by samsonknight
Web-Design is a passion for me , and if this industry was much more stable , I would have pursued it as a career...but as it is not, I will pursue a career into my dream industry programming...the same industry that is killing this industry by developing software that will make web designing easier for EVERYONE.

You know, i got started in my professional career as a photographer, and my editor summed it up to me one day when he said "it's not easy doing something for a living that everyone thinks that they know how to do."

Putting the tools in someone's hands does not make them a designer. Head on over to the sitecheck area, and you will see plenty of examples of terrible type, no sense of scale and color, lousy timing and motion skills, and a general lack of design ability.

This is not to say that there isn't excellent work out there, but there's a good reason that i'm not afraid of losing my clients to some code kid with a hacked copy of Flash who's willing to do the job for $350.

d.

**versatilemotion** · 09-05-2003, 02:23 AM

i second odddog on this one

Originally posted by OddDog
you answer your own question

**OddDog** · 09-05-2003, 04:16 AM

finaly

**samsonknight** · 09-05-2003, 08:19 PM

Putting the tools in someone's hands does not make them a designer. Head on over to the sitecheck area, and you will see plenty of examples of terrible type, no sense of scale and color, lousy timing and motion skills, and a general lack of design ability.

Yeah I understand, but I think i am not one of those really bad designers out there. I mean I understand colour , layout and a good GUI...I am not the best, and I do not think I am, and of course I do still have a lot to learn. I also like the rest of us seek inspiration from other designers to help me improve.

To justify myself as a designer, take a look at my latest project for a DJ:

http://www.samsonknightdesign.com/work.html

it was done for a DJ called Skoud, he was very impressed by the outcome of all of it and hasnt stopped thanking me for doing the job.

For this project I tried to make a fusion of clean and dirty..By using crisp images and borders but with the irony of "dirty" artistic typography and urban style animating...Currently I have not seen a website that has done this type of animating before - if you have tell me. As they all seem to either be crisp clean or just futuristic like 2advanced.

As for colour , well I had to understand colour, I mean each page on that site has different type of background colours and typography colour - matching the theme for each page.

As for layout, you decide if it was layed out well. But let me make one point, I tried to be simple yet effective; as I believe by making the layout to complex, your just making life a lot harder for yourself and all the best sites have simple but consistant layouts.

Thank you for your time and Happy flashing!

**johntabita** · 09-09-2003, 05:26 PM

There is a thread very similar to this one on SitePoint:

"Web development as a job is a joke"

**samsonknight** · 09-09-2003, 05:42 PM

hmm, this thread reinforces my concerns on weather being a web-designer is a good job of a stable income.

There is a thread very similar to this one on SitePoint:

**johntabita** · 09-09-2003, 07:34 PM

I've been on the fence about this question for a while. I just got word that I am going to be laid off. I do all of the web and print work for the company, but they are downsizing, like all the rest. I'm sure they figured out that they can hire someone to do my job for 10-15k less a year than I'm being paid.

On the flip side, for the past 2 years, I've been attempting to build a web development business with 2 partners. We have over 40 clients, a dedicated server, a content management system and a decent hosting revenue. But it's not nearly enough to support any of us on a full-time basis.

We've determined that for each of us to earn $50-60k a year, the business would have to generate $200,000+ in annual revenue. But the point of being in business is to make more than you would working for someone else, not just $50-60k. What we're wrestling with exactly the question you've asked: "Is the Web-Site Design Industry Dead?" or can a web development business generate enough revenue to pay us each 100k or more?

I'm reading an interesting book that compares the mindset of a technical person vs. an entrepreneur. The technician goes into business by looking at his skillset and saying, "How can I sell this?" and ends up with a business that satisfies himself. The entrepreneur looks at the market and asks, "Where is the opportunity?" and ends up with a business that satisfies a certain group of customers.

Like you, samsonknight, I love what I do. But I beginning to wonder if many of us (myself included) are like the technician in the book. We want to believe in the future of web design/development because we like it so much and can't imagine doing anything else.

I'm not saying that I'm right or have all the answers; on the contrary -- I'm asking a lot of questions. I'd like to hear other's thoughts on it.

**OddDog** · 09-10-2003, 04:32 AM

But the point of being in business is to make more than you would working for someone else,

this is not a generally the case, since working for yourself attracts lots of different types of people not just the i wanna get rich crowd.

**jaybirch** · 09-10-2003, 08:24 AM

i think the internet and in turn web design, is at a turning point, within the next 3-5 years its gonna be huge, much bigger than when it was at its peak 3-4 years ago. You just need to sit and think about what very high speed internet connections will bring to the industry, everything is gonna change, no more tvs, no more dvds, no more video. Everything will be internet driven, so get learning every trick you can and bide your time, things are looking good. (and yes, i've been drnkin)

**johntabita** · 09-10-2003, 01:17 PM

quote:
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But the point of being in business is to make more than you would working for someone else,
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this is not a generally the case, since working for yourself attracts lots of different types of people not just the i wanna get rich crowd.

Okay, let me rephrase that: The point of being in business should be to make more than you would working for someone else.

Seriously, why would anyone want to deal with all of the extra work of business development, sales & marketing, health insurance, legal issues, employees/sub-contrators, payables/receiveables, finances and year-end accounting only to make the same amount of money?

**dlowe93** · 09-10-2003, 01:25 PM

Originally posted by johntabita
Seriously, why would anyone want to deal with all of the extra work of business development, sales & marketing, health insurance, legal issues, employees/sub-contrators, payables/receiveables, finances and year-end accounting only to make the same amount of money?

To be able to take a break in the middle of my work day and go to the park with my son.

To take a "creative meeting" with the dog and go down to the river.

To explain to a client that you don't want to work with them anymore because their 4:50 on a Friday afternoon emergencies are just not what you want to deal with.

Stuff like that.

d.

**steveguberman** · 09-10-2003, 03:25 PM

david... that sounds so damn attractive! I am jeaalous.

**johntabita** · 09-10-2003, 03:27 PM

To be able to take a break in the middle of my work day and go to the park with my son.

To take a "creative meeting" with the dog and go down to the river.

To explain to a client that you don't want to work with them anymore because their 4:50 on a Friday afternoon emergencies are just not what you want to deal with.

Stuff like that.

d.

All of what you listed -- especially the first (I have 2 boys) are the very same reasons I want to be in business for myself.

I don't mean to get off-topic here, but this has been on my mind for several months. If you take a break with your dog or your son, you still have to make up that time later in the day or evening (assuming you have a full workload). If you blow off a client, there is the risk of losing them. If you take a vacation, do you get paid? If your business is merely an extension of yourself, you really only "own" a job.

Every reason you mentioned can be achieved by setting up your business so that you make more money and spend less time working in it.

**Hawkster** · 09-10-2003, 06:04 PM

Hi all,

I just been to an interview (london,uk) with a charity run company that had a £2 million annual turnover last yr, now the job is for a IT Assistant and the role involves running their server,upgrading their pc's etc..., now that seems fair enough, but they also want someone to update,and run their website (i dont think they really know what they want website wise), they have 1 person doing this role at the moment (they didnt seem to know what they were doing either), in the interview I was talking bout my webdesign ideas,skills etc...., they told me they was gonna use a CMS with eccommerce, and i couldnt help but laugh in my head, especially as they were offering to PAY to put me on a course to further my knowledge (aswell as this person already doing the job)....LOL, i was talking to them bout ASP,Flash etc...and they were looking at me with puzzled expressions on their face (even their so-called IT Manager), the pay is 30k a year+ bonuses and other company goodies....It seems a pretty good deal to me especially as im also self taught in the webdesign industry and i have only had my pc for 2yrs, also im 24 yrs old....i told them i had no qualifications in a pre-interview email, and that I am self taught, and sent them my C.V (my previous jobs have been in gas/engineering sector) with NO web experiance in it,they still wanted to interview me,also in the interview they told me they didn't want someone with lots of experiance....LOL

Also i have had Swishv2.0 for 3 weeks or so now and made a few examples (templates,logos etc..) and put them on disk and handed that to them at the end of the interview.

My point is this:

If me being self taught, no previous experiance in webdesign(i.e not been paid, or even have a "proper" portfolio) can get a job that pays 30k+ a yr (as apposed to the 19k for engineering i was earning), plus a qualified certificate(payed for by this company), THEN THE INDUSTRY IS NOT ONLY LOOKING GOOD BUT ALSO SCREWED UP......lol

P.S. I dont really expect to get this position, it was/is just good experiance for me as i never have applied for this type of job b4, i like webdesinging as a hobby and thought i would be interesting to see what companies would/are offering.....i'll be sure to post back and let you ppl know if i get the job or not...prolly not though

sorry to ramble on but had to share this experiance with ya....lol

**samsonknight** · 09-11-2003, 07:07 AM

the pay is 30k a year+ bonuses and other company goodies....

This is very odd...Not so long ago I was doing my own research into what companies were preparing to pay annually to hire web-designers in the Uk; and they seem to be paying something like 10-15k max...hmm odd, I checked out fish 4 jobs .com etc. I think the reason why companies were preparing to pay that much, is because I think its got to a point that the see web-design as a 'reception' type job- cos of the ease.

This job your describing sounds to good to be true - no experience provided ; training provided; 30k a year +; bonuses...I mean ****ing hell there must be a catch.

Well your lucky your 20 odd , despite me being 17 with a lot of web-development based skills and have a portfolio I would never be hired by them - only because they would probably see me as a kid...

**erova** · 09-11-2003, 09:05 AM

Originally posted by johntabita

I don't mean to get off-topic here, but this has been on my mind for several months. If you take a break with your dog or your son, you still have to make up that time later in the day or evening (assuming you have a full workload). If you blow off a client, there is the risk of losing them. If you take a vacation, do you get paid? If your business is merely an extension of yourself, you really only "own" a job.

but the advantage to doing it for yourself is that you manage client expecatations and charge more than what it takes for you live comfortably.

sometimes i'll work four hour days without thinking that i've got to make up the other four to complete a "standard" 8 hour day. hopefully i would have given my clients an expecation of getting the work done much later than it would actually take, just so i'm not caught in that sort of position.

vacations are the same way.

of course all the loot comes out of my pocket, but if one job calls up and needs a project that is quite similar to one i've sold another different client, re-brand it, make some minor changes and flip it for 2 large, then is my hourly rate a thousand bucks an hour? of course not. but that money can go to stuff like vacations, where i'm not exactly getting paid, but it's not coming out of my life savings or all going on the credit card either.

**hurricaneone** · 09-11-2003, 12:32 PM

Originally posted by johntabita
If you take a break with your dog or your son, you still have to make up that time later in the day or evening (assuming you have a full workload). If you blow off a client, there is the risk of losing them. If you take a vacation, do you get paid? If your business is merely an extension of yourself, you really only "own" a job.

Every reason you mentioned can be achieved by setting up your business so that you make more money and spend less time working in it.

To say that if you're working for yourself and take some time off, then you'll need to make that time up, is trying to put a corporate template over a self-employed template - and it's not going to fit.

There's no such thing as lost time. You just do what you have to do, and if that means staying up all night or working on Sunday to get the job done because you went out with your family the day before, well that's just the way it is. There's no clock-in, clock-out, no 'I'll make up the time I took to walk in the park by staying late on Thursday' simply because you stay late everyday - because you live where you work.

And I don't think that dlowe was 'blowing a client off' - he was losing them by choice, because unlike when you work for a company and you're handed a client portfolio whose contact is a complete jackass and you JUST HAVE TO LIVE WITH IT, when you work for yourself, you have the option to make the executive decision to say 'you and your project can **** off, and you can find some other poor individual on which to inflict your abrasive, self-important attitude'.

Which has actually never happened to me, because I think that people give much more respect to individuals who go out there and do it themselves, than to some account executive that was handed to them by the company they employed to handle a given project.

But that's a whole different thread.

And as for another post that was talking about some ads that were looking to low-ball you, the designer, I think that even paying them lip service by pointing them out to us here is giving them too much attention - there's always going to be people looking to take advantage, and there'll always be people setting themselves up to be taken advantage of, so don't end up being the second by accepting to work for the first.

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