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Thread: 72% of Bush supporters still believe Iraq had WMD

  1. #81
    supervillain gerbick's Avatar
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    Originally posted by david petley
    I am not complaining about anything, I just think that anything that comes between one man, one vote, one equal share of responsibility and obligation is not Democracy. No complaints from me...I do not live there and do not need to be under such a system.
    With above verbiage, you could be taken as if you're stating that other systems are not flawed.

    But... we all know better, right?

    All voting systems, even mandatory ones such as Australia, are flawed just as well. Now, the argument about which is flawed worse... we'd have to take each others word for it. You've never been to the US, or not to my knowledge have lived here ever in your life, nor have I been to Australia long enough to know what voting flaws exist in your system.

    Simply put, all systems are flawed. Sounding like one is better than the other is showing a bit of favoritism that is also flawed when one side of the story is all you know.

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  2. #82
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    Originally posted by indivision
    I commend Switzerlands contribution and efforts in the middle east. But, I think iaskwhy's point is that the task is too large for Switzerland (or the entire EU for that matter) to accomplish on it's own. I'm pretty sure that if you ask the aid workers there, they would not agree that the US should stop helping altogether.
    But I also think any claim that the US does "more" than many others is just as naive as saying the US doesn't help at all...

    So point being missed by both perhaps...?
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  3. #83
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    Originally posted by iaskwhy
    BTW, I didn't see a Swiss or Swedish plane flying over dropping anything. Or any planes or people from the EU doing anything to help anyone but themselves.
    Well, as has been pointed out previously, most of the EU countries provide more aid per head than the US.

    Let's not bother debating which is more meaningful - per head or total - but then let's also not be stupid enough to try to argue that either is not giving a substantial amount of aid (especially any of the Scandinavian countries, who do far more aid-wise than any other country in the world).

    Could countries give more? Well, that's another debate again...
    Michezo Youth Initiative - donate | Into Kenya | Naked Chronicles | Mark Bingham - my friend, America's hero

    To help new members fit into Flashkit, three rules they forgot to tell you on signup: Rule #1: Learn Group Think, and behave accordingly | Rule #2: Do as certain Mods say, not as they do. | Rule #3: If you're from outside the US, don't at any time criticise, allude or hyperlink to criticism of the US or any of their laws, policies or practices. | Enjoy your time at Flashkit!

  4. #84
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    david petley's Avatar
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    Originally posted by gerbick
    With above verbiage, you could be taken as if you're stating that other systems are not flawed.

    But... we all know better, right?
    right, please don't presume anything from what I have not said. I have yet to see or hear of one(political system) that didn't have flaws.

    All voting systems, even mandatory ones such as Australia, are flawed just as well. Now, the argument about which is flawed worse... we'd have to take each others word for it. You've never been to the US, or not to my knowledge have lived here ever in your life, nor have I been to Australia long enough to know what voting flaws exist in your system.

    Simply put, all systems are flawed. Sounding like one is better than the other is showing a bit of favoritism that is also flawed when one side of the story is all you know. [/B]
    Again, please don't presume anything from what I have not said.


    david
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  5. #85
    FK's Geezer Mod Ask The Geezer's Avatar
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    Originally posted by david petley
    Again, please don't presume anything from what I have not said.


    david
    Hey Dave, you mind if I use that in my footer?

  6. #86
    N' then I might just
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    Originally posted by iaskwhy
    Hey Dave, you mind if I use that in my footer?
    you're welcome

    davidp
    No longer a Flashkit mod, not even by stealth

    Insanity is just a point of view. After all, the world looks pretty normal through your own underpants.

  7. #87
    supervillain gerbick's Avatar
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    Originally posted by david petley
    Again, please don't presume anything from what I have not said.
    I've not presumed anything, DP. I guess the first sentence where I clearly stated that you, and I quote, "you could be taken as if you're stating that other systems are not flawed" somehow escaped you.

    Allow me to clarify since it seems to be needed.

    I said you could be taken as if you're stating that. I did not state that you did, or did not, state that any system was without flaws.

    I stated that you could be taken as if you were stating that.

    </end>

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  8. #88
    I'm the good one! XU1's Avatar
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    A more Bizarre Poll is that 72% of Democrats believe that Kerry would make a better President than GW.....now thats weird...


    Tony

  9. #89
    N' then I might just
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    david petley's Avatar
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    Originally posted by gerbick


    I stated that you could be taken as if you were stating that.

    </end>
    And i say in response....anyone who did that would be acting on very little information (their problem, not mine), and would be better trying to get me to clarify my point of view before jumping to any conclusions on what had not been said.

    david
    No longer a Flashkit mod, not even by stealth

    Insanity is just a point of view. After all, the world looks pretty normal through your own underpants.

  10. #90
    I'm the good one! XU1's Avatar
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    I think you two have just about stated your points...


    Tony

  11. #91
    FK's Geezer Mod Ask The Geezer's Avatar
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    Gerbs needs a nap.

  12. #92
    Senior Member flipsideguy's Avatar
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    Funny, as soon as you point out to Americans all the bad their government has done and is doing to the world, they start talkinga bout all the good they have done / are doing in the world.

    Why not just stop doing the bad things, as in:
    • Stop backing up Israel no matter what
    • Stop invading other countries on baseless intelligence
    • Stop removing / installing puppet governments in other countries (you can do that in the US as much as you want for all the rest of the world cares)
    • Stop referring to countries as uncivilized when there clearly is a civilization there...
    • Stop getting your discriminatory, generalizing world-view from Jay Leno




    /Flip
    Flipsideguy

  13. #93
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    Originally posted by flipsideguy

    Why not just stop doing the bad things, as in:
    • Stop backing up Israel no matter what
    • Stop invading other countries on baseless intelligence
    • Stop removing / installing puppet governments in other countries (you can do that in the US as much as you want for all the rest of the world cares)
    • Stop referring to countries as uncivilized when there clearly is a civilization there...
    • Stop getting your discriminatory, generalizing world-view from Jay Leno

    1) Israel was given a mandate to exist by the UN, and then essentially abandoned. The current state of that region should have the blamed placed solely on the shoulders of the UN, which refused to uphold its mandate. What the US has done there, once again, is provide the sole external force to support a UN mandate. You don't have to agree with the extent, but you certainly can't fault the US for being their lone supporter. Some would argue, though, that the extent is forced due to the LACK of international support of mild and moderate actions.

    2) Baseless intelligence that every other country in the world supported isn't baseless intelligence. There isn't a single country on Earth that believed Iraq to be free of WMD, there were just many who felt it wasn't worth the fight. That aside, I'm among the few people who will always say that even without WMD and 'baseless intelligence', the case for war was more than sufficient - you had a government openly defying the terms of a previous surrender, and the governing body responsible for upholding those terms is corrupt (at least two members of the UNSC were illegally violating their own resolution to trade with them). Given the open violation of the surrender, and the corruption of the UNSC, the only choice for resolution was a unilateral invasion. Period.

    3) Puppet governments are used around the world, and while we're certainly not the only ones doing it, we're among the worst offenders. It occurs because the stability provided by puppets in the short term benefits the global society in the long term. It needs to end, but it needs to fade out. (I've got 320 pages of thesis quality research on my other computer about puppet regimes in South America, if anyone cares - what's happenin in the Gulf has nothing on South America).

    4) is particularly funny when combined with (5). Stop acting as if every American is as moronic as the ones you see on TV, and don't complain about discrimination and condescending attitudes when you have one yourself.

  14. #94
    I'm the good one! XU1's Avatar
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    Why bother random_fool... I'm just going to answer with the following:

    Better the Devil you know than the one thats waiting around the corner.

    Tony

  15. #95
    supervillain gerbick's Avatar
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    Originally posted by iaskwhy
    Gerbs needs a nap.
    HAHAHAHA!

    well, forgive me for ever thinking I've stated a point clearly to only have it thrown at me. Second time it's been done to me. Oh well.

    I'm off for that nap

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  16. #96
    Senior Member Hellsbellboy's Avatar
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    Originally posted by swampy
    the term is "flogging" a dead horse.

    sheesh, you crazy kids and your mixed metaphors. I blame popular music.
    we don't flogg in the US..

  17. #97
    Senior Member Hellsbellboy's Avatar
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    Originally posted by david petley
    Exactly right....the US being one of them, otherwise they would disband their electoral college, and provide all citizens with the right and obligation to vote.

    Democracy is about the will of the people being excercised by the government, not the will of lobby groups, or those with enough money to own media companies.

    But anyway, back to the 72%...believing survey results will always lead one into dangerous waters....72% of ALL Bush supporters...how in anyone's name could they know that...did they go out and canvas every single one of them...how many millions of them are there?..about roughly half of the population of the US if my memory serves me correctly.

    damn surveys, and damn news as a commercial property rather than a source of accurate information.

    davidp.

    The US is a Republic. if we went by Popular Vote.. then like 5 states in the US would have the power to decide who was president.. You can imagine that those 5 states would get just about everything they wanted and the other 45 would be pretty neglected. You can bet the two canidates running for President know how the Electoral College works and formulate their strategy for it.

    If you thought Florida was bad.. could you imagine if they had to recount every vote in the US.

    Without the electoral college, Bush and Gore would have both realized that either of them could demand recounts and mount challenges against ballots in every precinct, in every county, in every state of the Union with the real hope of finding enough votes that the election could have been overturned. Thousands of lawyers would tie up hundreds of courts around the nation with little hope of any clean or clear conclusion. Rather than Bush v. Gore, we likely would have had hundreds of lawsuits winding their way to the Supreme Court.
    http://www.nationalreview.com/gregg/...0410250753.asp

  18. #98
    Senior Member Hellsbellboy's Avatar
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    Originally posted by TheOriginalFlashDavo
    Well, as has been pointed out previously, most of the EU countries provide more aid per head than the US.

    Let's not bother debating which is more meaningful - per head or total - but then let's also not be stupid enough to try to argue that either is not giving a substantial amount of aid (especially any of the Scandinavian countries, who do far more aid-wise than any other country in the world).

    Could countries give more? Well, that's another debate again...
    Sure when you do it by Government Contributions.. but you see in the US.. the Government gives tax incentives for people and corparations to donate, which Americans do in the tens of billions.

    UNITED STATES AID TO DEVELOPING COUNTRIES IS generally measured solely in terms of the official development assistance that the government
    provides to the U.S. Agency for International Development (USAID), Peace Corps, multilateral institutions, and certain programs sponsored by
    the State Department and Department of
    Defense. But the U.S. government also provides considerable resources for international assistance not included in measures of official development assistance. Moreover, many nongovernment U.S. sources—including foundations, corporations, private and voluntary organizations, colleges and
    universities, religious organizations, and individuals—provide direct assistance to people in developing countries. All these sources must be
    taken into account to plan aid effectively.
    http://www.usaid.gov/fani/Chapter_6-...l_Interest.pdf
    Last edited by Hellsbellboy; 10-25-2004 at 10:48 PM.

  19. #99
    I'm the good one! XU1's Avatar
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    Talking about proper representation......



    Tony
    Last edited by XU1; 10-25-2004 at 11:22 PM.

  20. #100
    N' then I might just
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    where did you dredge up that piece of propaganda rubbish....is that the way that the election is being fought over there??

    Just like me, most of those people wouldn't give a stuff about who is in power in the white house....they are the same. If it is not Bush, it will be Kerry.

    Same man at the head of a juggernaut of a government who seem to think they have a (God-given) right to mould the world in their own likeness, and for their own benefit.

    davidp
    No longer a Flashkit mod, not even by stealth

    Insanity is just a point of view. After all, the world looks pretty normal through your own underpants.

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