[ disc ] - Flash games wiki - yea or nae ?

[jonmack]

Do you think a flash games wiki would work?

Why a wiki?
About, ooh, a year ago ? some of the "big boys" of our flash games forum here at FlashKit started a project which became know only as "The FAQ". This huge undertaking was never completed, and to my knowledge none of those files were released to the public. Writing an FAQ on such a varied subject as flash gaming is difficult of course. It takes time and effort, and other things will inevitably get in the way. We can only accept that. But I always thought it was a shame that what work that might have been done on the infamous FAQ would be wasted.

Having seen some of the successes of other wiki's out there, such as wikipedia, I thought about this idea more. Something for the good of the commnity should be done by the community - the very concept of which underpins the "wiki" spirit. That way none of us gets tied down with having to complete the work; Others can continue to improve on it when we cannot.

Would it be worth it?
There are a myriad of tutorials about the fundamentals of flash games. Not to mention lots of collections of multi-user tutorials, such as those on gotoAndPlay. Would it be worth putting these all together, or are people happy enough to follow links from places such as these and our knowledgebase?

Would it work?
Yet another problem arises - would it work? Suppose we had a wiki and we wanted to enter the basics of that ever-so-popular "tilebased engine". There are many ways of achieving the same thing - how would a classic style, such as oos, stand next to a more OOP approach, such as tonypa? Would it be too confusing to have different approaches being added - and how to stop them from merging into a horrid mess of incompatible "my way" and "your way"?

Would you participate in it?
Difficulties asside - the success of other wikis rely on participation. It is made by you, so would you make it? It is needed by you - would yo use it?

For now I'm just interesting in what other people think - whether or not a wiki would be feasible solution to the great idea of "The FAQ". If there is a general consensus that "yeah, we'll have a go", then we can start another thread about how to implement it, and what should go into it, etc. If there is a general "nah, can't be bothered" then I'll have typed all these words for nowt, and I'll let the idea die

[Squize]

Like it

Squize.

PS. Long replies are a thing of the past

[jonmack]

Originally posted by Squize
PS. Long replies are a thing of the past

I'm never getting a real job if it changes you this much!

Thanks for the support though matey. But having sifted through the hordes of replies it looks like I'll have to let this one go. For now at least.

Of course, this could just be a very subtle *bump*

[Squize]

I really think it's an excellent idea, but I feel you've just posted it at the wrong time.

Now if you'd put drag racing in the title I'd be replying on the 3rd page by now

Glib comments aside, it does feel like the board is having one of it's little low phases atm so support for a project like this is going to fairly muted. Pity, and it would be nice to be proved wrong.

Squize.

[Kakihara]

yeh drag racing game or a fighter.

i think it is a good idea, how would you split it up into different sections though, beginner, intermediate and expert or something else?

[yellowman]

I think it´s a really good idea! Would be great to try and collect all related info in one place.

My only concern is, would people use it? Isn´t it much easier just to post a question in this forum. I mean, we have the shiny blue 'search button' up to the right on every page, yet most people keeps ignoring it..

Anyway, I would try to participate in some way, if the idea became reality.

/k

[Mathrim]

Originally posted by yellowman
I think it´s a really good idea! Would be great to try and collect all related info in one place.

My only concern is, would people use it? Isn´t it much easier just to post a question in this forum. I mean, we have the shiny blue 'search button' up to the right on every page, yet most people keeps ignoring it..

Anyway, I would try to participate in some way, if the idea became reality.

/k

ditto.

[Squize]

I think the problem with people not using search ( Or glancing at the read me sticky ) is down to us.

The past week I've seen so many people post really lame questions, and I really don't mean that from the point of view of thinking I'm great and simple questions are beneath me, far from it, but in the respect that people just can't be arsed to work things out for themselves.
It seems every little problem with a game is just posted up here, or every new stage of a games development.

We all go diving in and giving fla's and code ( When I say "We", not speaking for myself there ) instead of saying "Well how do you think it should be done ?", "Have you searched ?" etc.
In fact everything which was covered in the read me, which a lot of people here had input in, it's not just my little thread there.

So could the wiki work ? Yeah, big time. Will people use it ? Depends on us. If people are pointed in the correct direction, instead of being spoon fed ( Which always ends up with someone cracking after a while when they realise that the person is doing zero work towards their own game and then start flaming ) then yeah, it could be a fantastic resource.

I'm guessing I'm going to get flamed for this post myself, with some people thinking I'm taking a snobby elitist view and that the board is here for everyone. Well, I'm not and it is.
But giving chunks of code to people who have been coding for 3 days since they got a cracked version of Flash thinking they can knock out a [insert current genre here] in under a week and have all the newsgrounds gang praising them, isn't doing the board or the person asking the questions any favours in the long run.

Hmmmm so much for short replies

Squize.

[dogtown08]

You guys are absolutely right. Probably about 90% of questions on this form are identical or slight variations of questions asked before. The other 10% are mostly asked by veterans of these forms.

It is clear to me that we are doing something wrong. When I came to these forms several months ago, I didnt read the sticky because I DIDN'T SEE IT. Make it flashing red. Make all new users take a quiz on it before they can post!

Maybe make a new board. Advanced games and simple games. Maybe have some sort of minimum post requirement in the advanced games. This way, we could tell when we can give code which the poster will understand and will not expect it to work simply "copy paste".

So, back to the original question: No, I dont think it is a good idea. As I said, at least 90% of the information is out there and putting it in one place will not help us if the users looking for it cannot find it. All we need is some way for new users to know where the read me thread is and know where the search button is. Let them do the hard work.

[crashlanding]

I think its a great idea. I rarely see a post by someone asking a question thats hasn't been asked for ages. (time for another "[disc]erm..." thread)

If this actually happens, then it wil;l just be a case of making people look at it.

[Squize]

Hmmm think my post was taken very much out of context there, but I'm not going to spend time defending it as I knew people would take it the wrong way.

I have to disagree about the wiki having to cover basic Flash. If people don't know how to draw things, layers etc. then they are not ready to even attempt a game, and so the wiki will not be for them.

There is a phrase about learning to walk before you run... I can't use Director, so the first thing I attempt on it won't be a game, 'cause I'm aware of my limitations.

The wiki doesn't have to be all things to all people, it never will be and it's very nieive to think it could be.
But as a handy little repository of links and little tips then it could be very helpful to a lot of people.

Squize.

[alillm]

Tonypa is right taht it would be impossible to cover evrything, but i think that this sort of thing is exactly what we need. The search function wont always be a good option for newbies because they either don't know what to search for, or they don't understand what they find (thats if they even bother trying to search in the first place). If there was a place where there was a large number of tutorials covering most of the basics and some of the more advanced stuff, Even if people dont look there in the first place, its only a matter of giving them the link to the tutorial(s) that they need.
Just what i think

Ali

[token 3]

I think it would be a great idea, however, after personally taking the time to learn Flash I think it would be a waste of time, I'd rether leave this forum for the newbie content.

If a wiki type site were to be created, it would probably be best if it were to offer a computer games wiki as Tony suggested, but isn't there already sites that do this?

Basically, if you want to take on a huge project but end up with a great portfoiio, then take this project on, otherwise - I wouldn't bother

or if you wanted to save the trouble, you could try asking Branden Hall if he could help out. Ever heard of figleaf?

http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/

they used to have flashcoders wiki, it go taken down due to abuse, I don't know if it will be back. You may want to pester Branden to try and get a dedicated games list set up... it's worth a try (maybe try it through one of the electrotank guys... I'm sure Branden would listen to them more than us unknown guys - or get Mr big Shot (squize) to put in a word )

Good luck
Mike

[Squize]

Funnily enough, "Mr. Big Shot" is my acting name when I'm doing porno

Squize.

[token 3]

Hell, that was you ..... so the myth about needing to be well endowed ain't true..

... goes to wash eyes with soap

[Squize]

lol.

Anyway, why are you watching "32 year old stud get's done up the wrong un' by a donkey II" for anyway ?

Oh... nothing.

Squize.

[thehumanchimp]

lol - possibly the funniest thing i hav heard this month (uk time)

sorry i dont have anything useful to say aout the actual topic in question - its just i have no idea whether it would work.

I hope it does, and if you do make it i would contribute. Whether any new people use it is a different story altogether.

Good Luck

[sand858]

*sneaks in*

I think it would be a fun idea. If the people who usually answered questions (definitely not me recently, don't even have enough free time to shower.. ew), committed to answering the questions there and then posting a link, instead of answering on the forums it could grow in bulk and usefulness quite quickly.

I don't agree that there should be a general "games programming" wiki. Very few Flash games are complex enough (no offense, I hope) to make a generic games programming wiki for a Flash community worthwhile.

I know there is a lot of data in me from my relative short experience with Flash that some newer programmers could find very useful.

There is a permanence with Wiki's that makes me believe it might be more successful than a forum in curbing newbie / do-a-freaking-search type questions.

Anyway, that's my really-tired, half-brained response.

[mentuat]

personally I don't think this would work - aside from the issues Tonypa mentions about presenting diferences in code - I think the 'problem to solve' isn't the lack of information out there or the way it is presented, but the attitude of the multitude of kids who want to make games in flash and not realizing how much there is to learn in order to truly create what they have in their head.

However good or concise the faq/wiki/stickie is, it won't change this mindset.

[jonmack]

Thankyou for all the replys everyone. I'll try and reply to some of it.

squize
Yeah, I know this place is in a low at the moment. Probably was the wrong time to ask this question, but... it was a handy distraction from my uni. essay Still, I thought it a novel way of trying to help, I just don't know if it'll work.

yellowman
Hi Klas. Yes it seems easier to post a question than to take the time to search and learn. But that's the problem - seeing the same questions over and over again needs a strong character not to bite. I see this board now as a place to ask questions for a quick fix, whereas a wiki or something similar should be a place to go for those who want to learn flash. Thanks for your support though. Following on to something similar realted by dogtown...

dogtown08
Solutions such as splitting the games board up have been discussed before. Every time the baord goes into a lull, people start to talk about how to fix it. It's just my turn to start that talk it seems The last outcome of one of these discussions was to draft up the README thread, and start using [beta], [disc], [help], in front of posts, so as to help people distinguish between the posts. Although quite a few people use this method now, it unfortunately hasn't stopped the mindless repeated questions. You've got a good point on the "it's already out there" stance though. It's something I thought about - and I honestly still don't know if it's worth "re-inventing the wheel" by putting it all together in one place. Especially if after all the effort no-one reads it anyway.

"Let them do the hard work." The unfortunate problem is, most of the "people" want to make a game to impress there mates, so therefore do not want to work. It's not about if they can find it, it's about if they will use it. You might not have seen the readme thread, but I'll bet you plenty have, but they just thought "meh, why read when I can post".

tonypa
Well thought out response, thank you. And you have nailed all of the problematic points on the head. Squize has the same idea as me to what the best form of a wiki would be - the basics, not a complete guide to everything that is flash games. It would simple be the same idea as the FAQ - just not tied down to a handfull of people. And there are cetainly ideas and concepts that are relavent to all the different versions of flash, although yes it could be a problem if they are mixed and not compatible. I was wondering what do you think of the flash games board? Do you see the times when there is nothing new and no-one is interested? I appreciate, and respect, that you are one of the keystone personalities of this forum - you always help out and your many recent game that have been release have put some life back into it. But if you think the wiki is a bad idea, could you suggest other things to make this place better - to bring back some innovation and pushing it forward, instead of having 10 questions about [insert current games fad]? Just wondering what you think. Thanks mate.

alillm
Yes, there are places with all sorts of articles with different levels of difficulty with all the basic flash games things - gotoAndPlay's collection is mounting up nicely. That is another point I'm really not to sure on, thus me seeking peoples opinions - why bother making a wiki if we can point to those resources?

token 3
"I think it would be a great idea, however, after personally taking the time to learn Flash I think it would be a waste of time, I'd rether leave this forum for the newbie content.

I was slightly taken aback when I read this, but forgive me if I'm just understanding it out of proportion. Don't you think this forum should have inovation and show games as well as being merly a heap of repeated questions "left for the newbies". You've spent years learning flash, and are surely one of the top-guns out there. You don't think it is worthwhile giving something back, to share the knowlege you have learnt?

I had heard of fligleaf. I didn't realise it has been taken down though - besides whenever i went on there there was nothing about games, it was more like a whiteboard for discussions, rather than "tutorial" style articles. Admittedly, I haven't been on there for quite a while though. If if did suffer from abuse, then I have to initially think that there mustn't have been much of a community behind it - that is how wiki's survive.

Thanks for the kind words, and maybe I will contact them if this takes off.

-=-
moving swiftly by the amateur pr0n star comments
-=-

thehumanchimp
Me neither That's why I'm asking. There must be some way to make "t3h n00bs!!1!one!!!" read stickys or ask questions at least in English.

sand858
Yes, I think it could work too, but it has to have the support of the community to do that. Both in creating it and promitting it so they know where to look. Again, the right idea is of a simple FAQ wiki and not "every game in the world... ever".

mentuat
An excellent point mate. I almost gave up all hope of the wiki after reading that I think you're right - it's the influx of quick-code skiddies that is the problem - not the available information. I just thought the idea of the wiki could be a place or purely resource, no questions. Even if it was a list of links to other resoures out there, not containing any of it's own tutorials, it might be worth something. The knowledgebase thread is pretty good, but if you find a nice flash resource site somewhere, how many people put it up for inclusion in the KB? Of course, if someone's not inclined to add it there, then it's unlikely that they'll add to the wiki.

As to changing the mindset of the game forum users. Again, I don't know if this will be a solution. I merley post the thought "what if?"

I'll just finish with a quote from the old man himself ,

" "Well how do you think it should be done ?" " - I like this idea the best. Whether we make an outside wiki or on these forums here, it would be nice to make it a place to learn, rather than a place to get a quick fix. Should be just keep pointing them to the sticky / ask them to search? Maybe they will go away and one day be able to do that on their own without asking first. Maybe some people can never be changed and they will just keep asking...