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Thread: Political discussion in here please!

  1. #81
    I'm the good one! XU1's Avatar
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    Originally posted by david petley
    ...you know, if there is only black and white, then the opposite of socialism is fascism isn't it?

    Does that mean that if you do not have socialist views, that you must have facist ones?

    dp
    No, but ironicaly Fascism and Socialism have more in common with each other than Capitalism. I'm talking about shades of black or white here.

    I fact every suppressive ideology has more in common with Socialism than (Conservative Capitalism).....is there a pattern here or what?


    Tony
    Last edited by XU1; 11-02-2004 at 12:02 AM.

  2. #82
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    Originally posted by XU1
    Well in many things there is only one right or wrong way.....
    Name some.

    I firmly believe that the answer to most things is never found in the extreme view, but in the middle somewhere.
    Well that's certainly not what your contributions on Flashkit suggest.

    And sorry for not coming up to your intelectual level, but I find debating for the sake of debating a rather useless excercise.....
    Actually, as has been the case with a number of PM discussions I have going on, intelligent discussion between those with differeing views can actually lead to greater understanding and a solid middle ground.

    And doesn't need to be intellectual to be intelligent - just open, non-discriminatory, logical and balanced.

    I have already seen this in action with the UN.....and lawyers..
    Woops! And in comes that black and white again... if they're not perfect, they must be bad.

    Last edited by TheOriginalFlashDavo; 11-02-2004 at 12:12 AM.
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  3. #83
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    Originally posted by XU1
    No, but ironicaly Fascism and Socialism have more in common with each other than Capitalism. I'm talking about shades of black or white here.

    I fact every suppressive ideology has more in common with Socialism than (Conservative Capitalism).....is there a pattern here or what?


    Tony
    Ideologies aren't suppressive.....people are, and use ideologies as their excuse for action to suit their own needs.

    david
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  4. #84
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    Originally posted by flipsideguy
    Ok, since Socialism has been brought up as a factor to people's (not mine, though I consider myself a socialist) hatred for Bush, I will partake in a civilized discussion remember, no trolling - whatever that means.

    If people believe that Bush invaded Iraq with a hidden agenda that borders on imperialism, socialist will be against the invasion. The correlation is obvious.

    I think the US would benefit from some form of socialism. Look at places like Baltimore where the poverty level is very high, where jobs are being lost left and right. It's no lie that the rich in the US are very rich and the poor are very poor. The middle-class is becoming non-existent. Sure, why not, when you have tax-cuts that benefit the rich. There is a stigma in the US that the poor should never be a burden to the rich. It's difficult discussing these things with Americans because to them "The American Dream" is only for the hard-working, not the unemployed.

    What are you thoughts and reaction to the observations put forward in my post?
    Mate, you only have to spend any significant length of time in the Scandinavian countries to see the benefits of a socialist democracy. They have very easily the highest standard of living of any area of the world, and everyone benefits.

    (and let's see who takes this as once again an "attack on the US" rather than a discussion on socialist/democratic principles in general...)
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  5. #85
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    Originally posted by david petley
    Ideologies aren't suppressive.....people are, and use ideologies as their excuse for action to suit their own needs.

    david
    And isn't "suppression" (though "oppression" is the correct term here) very much dependent on who's viewpoint you're coming from?

    Shall we ask indigenous Australians about oppression within a "democracy"?
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  6. #86
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  7. #87
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    Originally posted by TheOriginalFlashDavo
    And isn't "suppression" (though "oppression" is the correct term here) very much dependent on who's viewpoint you're coming from?

    Shall we ask indigenous Australians about oppression within a "democracy"?
    Mate if I'm being told what to think and what to say, then I would consider myself opressed and supressed.

    One thing I cannot handle about modern socialism and liberalism is that for some reason the ideology is above questioning.
    As though its a God send to the rest of us.

    Now you yourself have said that you dont fit in any category, I say you do, you hate being labeled a Socialist or an equivalent, why? its because you most probably think that your views fit within the confines of what is naturaly right....and not within the broader viewpoint of a particular philosophy or ideology.

    And this is why I say that Socialism ( in its purest form) is oppressive because it cannot be questioned since it is the "natural" way that people should live under....and as a consequece it suppresses.

    And BTW
    When was the last time you saw an Aboriginie being opressed?

    Tony

  8. #88
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    Originally posted by david petley
    US Voting Machine
    LOL....but I can tell you that the plane loads of lawyers that the Democrats have, ready to pounce on something like that happening is staggering.

    Tony

  9. #89
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    Originally posted by XU1
    LOL....but I can tell you that the plane loads of lawyers that the Democrats have, ready to pounce on something like that happening is staggering.

    Tony
    Haven't they already lost almost that many postal votes just recently?

    Didn't they design and put in place a voting machine that does not produce a printed record of your vote, where the only record of votes is on a computer hard drive somewhere?

    davidp.
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  10. #90
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    yes, 'lost' ballot papers -

    http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.j...toryID=6630631


    http://www.indybay.org/news/2004/10/1701784.php


    davidp.

    <edit> only ballots lost, not votes...so far</edit>
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  11. #91
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    Originally posted by david petley
    Haven't they already lost almost that many postal votes just recently?

    Didn't they design and put in place a voting machine that does not produce a printed record of your vote, where the only record of votes is on a computer hard drive somewhere?

    davidp.
    I agree with you...but if so both are equaly as guilty.

    Tony

  12. #92
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    Originally posted by david petley

    Didn't they design and put in place a voting machine that does not produce a printed record of your vote, where the only record of votes is on a computer hard drive somewhere?

    davidp.
    and yes, there is an interesting article here - http://www.verifiedvoting.org/#miscounts

    links to this...
    http://www.verifiedvoting.org/article.php?id=1025

    U.S. Rep. Robert Wexler...
    "I'm not a paranoid person," Wexler said. "I don't operate from a paranoid point of view." But, he said, the potential for problems is great. "Both a purposeful attack on the computer system or just a computer malfunction will put our whole democratic process in chaos," he said.
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  13. #93
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    If I were an American, I would be very worried by a voting system so closed to scrutiny...where the only record is on hard drives...we all work with computers, we know how NON-failsafe they are.

    The person responsible for the fiasco there in Florida last election, was elected to the Congress in 2002.

    The private company who sorted the voters rolls (that excluded not only ex-cons, but also people who happened to share a birthday or surname with an ex-con) had a senior republican as a director.

    I would be really worried that my democratic election process had ALREADY been hijacked and was no longer open and democratic.

    http://www.bushflash.com/gta.html ...are the 'facts' presented in this Flash movie true??

    I would feel like I was not living in a democracy.

    david
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  14. #94
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    Originally posted by XU1
    Mate if I'm being told what to think and what to say, then I would consider myself opressed and supressed.
    Well, with certain people's education level and limited access to information, it depends on how you define "told what to think". In many ways, much of society is "told" what to think.

    And before (as is your want) you want to dismiss an opinion like this as "codswollop" or similar, back it up with something. I've got a 2,500 researched essay on mass media and how it influences people's outlook on the world to back my view up. Not saying it's anymore correct than your view, but at least I can bring evidence to support mine. A little like your view of the ABC being "leftie" - not worth a grain of salt unless you can back it up with research. I can, so maybe time to start learning the difference between an "opinion" and a balanced viewpoint (and "balanced" doesn't neccesarily mean the same).

    One thing I cannot handle about modern socialism and liberalism is that for some reason the ideology is above questioning.
    As though its a God send to the rest of us.

    Now you yourself have said that you dont fit in any category, I say you do, you hate being labeled a Socialist or an equivalent, why? its because you most probably think that your views fit within the confines of what is naturaly right....and not within the broader viewpoint of a particular philosophy or ideology.
    I know what you believe, but then your views sit quite clearly on the far right of any spectrum, due in no small part to your religious beliefs (and with your particular religious beliefs, I'd be very wary of saying that anybody else believes anything to be a "God send". ).

    You're presuming I don't question and/or change my viewpoint. I question my own views far more than any questions to others that they seem to have so much trouble with here, and I seek out information and views from a variety of viewpoints in order to seek a balanced opinion. It's the very reason why on many matters I won't comment on because I don't know the full picture (such as, now, the overall contributions of the US to world aid, taking into account the private donations...etc that I have learned about over the past year or so).

    My views are simply about being fair and equal to everyone, not discriminatory simply on the basis of being fortunate enough to have been born in a particular country or with particular opportunities that others do not have. That doesn't mean sharing everything equally with everyone else (if you want to get into a simple definition of socialism so you'll understand it better), however it does mean those with power and/or money contributing more fairly than they do at present to those without.

    I listened to a guy on the radio a little while back, who was a cultural and social philosopher and writer, who had made the decision a number of years ago to give 20% of all his earnings to charity. As he said, it's not about dropping out and becomming a hippy and growing your own vegetables, but about realising that there is more to life and doing the right things than just earning and keeping as much money as possible. It's a view and practice that I'm trying to take on board as much as possible, without being silly enough to think you don't need to earn a decent quid in order to have a family and so forth.

    And this is why I say that Socialism (in its purest form) is oppressive because it cannot be questioned since it is the "natural" way that people should live under....and as a consequece it suppresses.
    And just as easily it could be said that capitalism in its "purest" form oppresses people in that the only thing that matters is money and making a profit, over and above the well-being of the majority. Oppression also includes economic, health and cultural oppression. Both capitalism and socialism extremes need checks and balances in order to effectively function.

    Go do a little research into the Scandinavian countries to see how a socialist democratic idealogy can function very effectively. Not saying it's perfect, but it's far from oppressive.

    And BTW
    When was the last time you saw an Aboriginie being opressed?
    Yep, the white anglo-saxon dismissal of the very real social issues that exist - "it's all their fault". Heard it all before, so no need to harp on about it. Do some real investigation into the issues and back up your opinion with evidence and then I'll take your opinion as being valid in some way. As with previous posts, get away from your black and white view of the world and realise that while there is culpability within aboriginal communities that needs to be addressed there is certainly a huge area of responsibility we white anglo-saxons must take as the dominating and, yes, oppressive cultural and economic force.
    Last edited by TheOriginalFlashDavo; 11-02-2004 at 01:53 AM.
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  15. #95
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    Re: OT

    Originally posted by flipsideguy
    BTW, Indivision, did I ever say you have a great website? Well I guess I just did

    /Flip
    Hey, thanks man! I just finished re-designing it. I have a few extra features to add and then I'm going to run it by the flashkit judges.

    I got too far behind in this thread to catch up with where I was (and my football team did so bad I'm not going to admit who they are). But, I think this thread is becoming more constructive than the average FK political bash which is cool. Maybe a calm before the election storm?

    Should I start a 'last day to hug before the election' thread?
    Last edited by indivision; 11-02-2004 at 02:42 AM.

  16. #96
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    Originally posted by shadowking
    One major beef, the electronic machine, upon reset default is straight republican ticket, if u do nothing and push cast vote its for Bush.
    That's a bit of a worry, spedcially if it's going to be as close as they think...

    So the machines are made by a company that supports the republicans I'm guessing?
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  17. #97
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    Originally posted by XU1
    LOL....but I can tell you that the plane loads of lawyers that the Democrats have, ready to pounce on something like that happening is staggering.
    ...almost like the plane loads of Republican lawyers heading out to Ohio to "challenge" (read: intimidate and discourage) minority voters.

    Court Rules That G.O.P. in Ohio Can Challenge Voters at Polls

    (BTW, Tony, just in case you think the Dems are ones who are lawyer happy, Repub lawyers will outnumber Dems in Ohio by 1,500)

    If hanging chads were the Florida issue in 2000, this is going to be the Florida, Ohio and Illinois issue of 04...
    Last edited by japangreg; 11-02-2004 at 11:29 AM.
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  18. #98
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    Originally posted by TheOriginalFlashDavo
    So the machines are made by a company that supports the republicans I'm guessing?
    I believe the company that made the machines was a heavy republican contributor in 2000.
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  19. #99
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    * sneaks in to thread *

    you know, if everyone put as much thought/energy/care/love/attention into their family and job that they put into their political views, we wouldn't need to worry about all this crap. people would be happy and busy.

    * sidles back out *

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  20. #100
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    (not so fast you - get back here!)
    Originally posted by nordberg
    you know, if everyone put as much thought/energy/care/love/attention into their family and job that they put into their political views, we wouldn't need to worry about all this crap. people would be happy and busy.
    What about the people who don't care about politics? Why would you want to encourage broken families and lazy work ethics?! Shame on you!

    I'd hate to live in a country where people went about their lives oblivious to the decisions their leaders make in their name (not that for the most part I don't at the moment...); this is really a case of what you don't see can indeed hurt you. Paying attention to your family is not going to amount to much if your children are shipped overseas to fight wars of choice, and concentrating on work won't mean much when your job is shipped overseas too.
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