should we be programmers or designers

[white teeth]

hi flash kit residents(??),
ha i really enjoy my stay here. I just want to discuss if a designer should learn programming. There are programmers but ya know some companies just too small budget to hire two...
my boss asking me to leave coz they say they want to hire a programmer which in their case are more suitable.

[FlashKid105]

I think a designer definitely should have some programming skills. I myself am not a programming guru by nature but I still do some programming with Actionscript.

[Markp.com]

I never see why one person should do two peoples jobs...

You can easily be jack of all trades, master of none.

I think its important to work with and master your key skills, rather than having little bits here and there.

In practice of course, this is never really the case and I know how to do lots of things in different programs.

If I was a boss, I'd hire a person for each roll. I belive you'd get better work this way, but most bosses think of money only. Why pay two sallaries when I can pay one or one and a little bit more two one guy?

[Archimage]

We had a long discussion over this Topic at a Reunion dinner last month, we talked plenty-big Bull, but most people agreed the Workplace has changed to keep up with the changing times, but the Training for Jobs, be it Apprentice System, Tech or Uni has'nt.

Generally speaking companies hire people to cover the needs of a Position/Task. The qualifications for the Position might cover anywhere from 1-5 different Trade Groups. Most firms where I live ask for example that an IT-System Technician have Programming skills & 3years working experience with Several Software Systems. The System Tech is supposed to install the System(& Network if needed), adjust it, troubleshoot it and administer it. The truth is they probably want a University Grad with several types of programming under his belt, but won't pay for it so they advertise the Lowest paid Skill group for the position.

It will never change as long as the Firms get what they want at the price they offer. I think it is long over due within many sectors that a more Modular, but segmented approach is taken to providing workforces for jobs. Once one skill group can cover your job and more you'll find yourself evolving out of the job market "El-Rapido".

[white teeth]

I agreewith markp.com & archimage. In my case, I learnt basic actionscripting in school but didn't catch on with the advanced actionscipting/programming of course. I don't expect designers to be great at programming coz we are wired very differently. A person who can program normally can't design for nuts and vice versa(jack of all trades; master in none). Most fresh grads at least from my school; know not advanced programming. So if the industry wants a designer who can program then i think most of us will have to take out prvate courses to have that edge. but the designers have to juggle both subjects..what a conflict. I think bosses should be fair; they shouldn't expect designers to program. They should hire both, if not kill the designer!
How I hope the world can change- hiring both designers and programmers will make the world a better place !!! dreaming* (but that is most of the time not the case).
Anyone out there who is a designer and expected to do programming in your job scope? Share.

[Goosedroppings]

I am a schooled designer hired by a small design firm who has self taught himself quite a bit of Flash and front end programming. I have alienated myself from my design friends because I no longer deal with picas, cmyk builds, and print specs. None of my friends know what a tween is let alone Actionscript.

We were all out at our bar last night discussing our jobs and the evolution of technology. Unlinke the others, my career path has lead me into a volital scenario of learning more software and technology on a constant basis taking away time I would have used to explore more design concepts. I want to be great at what I do like most of you. The skill sets of folks in our field are becoming impressive and the cream is rising to the top.

It comes down to time allocation in my opinion. Do I want to become great in both? Will my family or quality of life suffer? Is it about money? Will I pidgeon hole myself as a technical asset or a creative asset?

I've come to a point in my career where I need to answer these questions.

A couple years ago my office was next door to some of the most respected and published Flash folks out there, the boys from Fourm, Natzke, Hoodge, Lettau, Kroeger (not together anymore). I saw how hard they worked, staying up late every nite with their heads in the screen when I was going home. Tremendous respect, but do I want to live like that? Make those type of sacrifices?

Great conversation topic. Thanks for starting this thread.

[ihoss.com]

no, you would drive us programmers out of business

I believe its easier for a designer to learn programming than for a programmer to learn how to design

[FlashKid105]

As a Flash designer for a hobby, I have done a lot of basic Actionscripting (mainly to provide interactivity for all of my movies). But yeah, I think bosses should be fair in hiring both designers and programmers.

[PAlexC]

There's a big difference between programming and scripting.

If you're a designer, and your medium is the web, you need to understand a basic amount of scripting. Not just AS, but JS, and a dash of PHP couldn't hurt either. Scripting doesn't deal with data, it deals with manipulating design elements. It's another tool in your arsenal alongside HTML, CSS, Flash, Photoshop, etc. Your basic website doesn't require much more than this.

A programmer is going to deal with manipulating and transferring data. Their design skills really only need to encompass usability and some basic interface design. Granted, a good many Flash programmers also have excellent design skills. More power to 'em.

Both should know how to work with the other.

What it boils down to isn't what you label yourself as, but the kind of work you take on.

[erova]

Originally posted by PAlexC
There's a big difference between programming and scripting.

If you're a designer, and your medium is the web, you need to understand a basic amount of scripting. Not just AS, but JS, and a dash of PHP couldn't hurt either. Scripting doesn't deal with data, it deals with manipulating design elements. It's another tool in your arsenal alongside HTML, CSS, Flash, Photoshop, etc. Your basic website doesn't require much more than this.

A programmer is going to deal with manipulating and transferring data. Their design skills really only need to encompass usability and some basic interface design. Granted, a good many Flash programmers also have excellent design skills. More power to 'em.

Both should know how to work with the other.

What it boils down to isn't what you label yourself as, but the kind of work you take on.

pfft. sounds like this guy actually works for a living.


in all seriousness though, palex is spot on. if all a contractor can do is give me a PSD file or an EPS, then not's not real helpful. If he or she labels himself a designer and therefore doesn't understand the limits or conveniences of the medium because those concepts are *technical*, then they are also doin a disservice to the client and themselves, especially if they overpromise only to find themselves well over their head....

[PAlexC]

Originally posted by erova
pfft. sounds like this guy actually works for a living.

define 'work'.

[white teeth]

wow, I am rather surprised by the several responses for this thread. That's great coz we can then try to create some justice over this issue and have some peace of mind..

[jamble]

Originally posted by white teeth
wow, I am rather surprised by the several responses for this thread. That's great coz we can then try to create some justice over this issue and have some peace of mind..

One only has to look at job adverts placed by recruitment agencies these days to see that expectations among employers as to what they get for their money have increased an amazing amount in the last couple of years.

Where it used to be a fairly clear cut divide between a designer and a programmer, many job ads I come across these days strike me as unreallistic (I mean how many coldfusion, php, asp, MySQL, javascript programmers also have 5 years commercial design experience in print etc and are willing to work for £12k?)

Until this imbalance is addressed, employers will continue to expect these sorts of skillsets from even junior employees!

[white teeth]

Originally posted by jamble7000
One only has to look at job adverts placed by recruitment agencies these days to see that expectations among employers as to what they get for their money have increased an amazing amount in the last couple of years.

Where it used to be a fairly clear cut divide between a designer and a programmer, many job ads I come across these days strike me as unreallistic (I mean how many coldfusion, php, asp, MySQL, javascript programmers also have 5 years commercial design experience in print etc and are willing to work for £12k?)

Until this imbalance is addressed, employers will continue to expect these sorts of skillsets from even junior employees!

hmm! That's right! I was thinking about this side of the issue too. The expectations are ridiculous. I came across 3 postings today that expect the designer to be like an octopus(can do everything!), SQL, php...phew. and the pay is miserable..how can we bring justice literally now? cal up the government?

[jamble]

Originally posted by white teeth
hmm! That's right! I was thinking about this side of the issue too. The expectations are ridiculous. I came across 3 postings today that expect the designer to be like an octopus(can do everything!), SQL, php...phew. and the pay is miserable..how can we bring justice literally now? cal up the government?

I don't really see that the government would or could do anyway but recruitment like so many things is purely market driven. Until people stop taking these jobs, the recruiters will continue to offer them.

Perhaps they will realise that in many cases, when they hire a specialist rather than a jack of all trades, they will get a higher quality of work but most will not trade that off against higher wages in this market.

[Subway]

Maybe search a job like this guy here: http://213.186.36.10/~al/alstudio/cv/en.htm

Fredi

[issamneo]

generally allah (god) gives money to donkey to be a designer the man must be an artist
and to be a programmer the man must have a brain that works with 0 and 1.
where will they found such a man i hate them (bosses)
ah me a programmer can't even make a good button. but when it is xml, php and as 2.0 ah it's me

[asun2art]

Is it better to be Good looking or rich & Successful?








I little bit of both won't hurt....

[silverx2]

i dont care what people say afros are dumb

[the sherrif]

personally I think everyone has the ability for graphic design of some sort, that includes programmers. Everyone can learn how to use photoshop, learn compositioning techniques etc. The rest just comes with experience. These are not high expectations at all.

I also think any average joe has the capacity to learn actionscript and simple programming concepts.

All you need is some determination and not to stop learning once you got your degree.