I'm Norwegian and I have nothing against Islam

[admedia]

Sounds good, just don't burn any embassies down.

mmmkay?

[Ask The Geezer]

[2] This is the book; in it is guidance, sure, without doubt, to those who fear Allah;

What does he say about all the OTHER books that have been written on this subject? Being a cynic, and yes, believing most of what I actually see, and non of what some 1400 year old book wants me to believe, I have to say it's outdated and so are the people who blindly follow it.

[4] And who believe in the Revelation sent to thee, and sent before thy time, and (in their hearts) have the assurance of the Hereafter.

I don't believe in 'revelation' as something sent from god. More likely, if I have a revelation, it's because I'm missing some essential vitimin or mineral from my diet, or ate some bad goat meat and my mind has wandered. If I were really to see something odd, I certainly wouldn't tell anyone about it, cause I'd be locked up in the loony bin.

After observing the antics of muslim, southern baptist, catholic, mormon and other holey rollers for a lifetime, I feel sad that so many people in this world are suffering from a mental abberation by believing word for word what some musty old book or some religious idiot with an agenda tells them. Just proves to me that the school system isn't working.

Since you've probably never believed in reality, maybe you ought to try it sometime before telling others that it doesn't exist. And here's a hint the muslim world might want to pick up on, nobody wants to hear what your god has to say. If he's real and has something to say, he should be perfectly able to tell the rest of us without any kibuttzing from the peanut gallery.

[newhive]

What does he say about all the OTHER books that have been written on this subject?

In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

[1] Alif Lam Mim.

[2] Allah! there is no god but He, the Living, the Self-Subsisting, Eternal.

[3] It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Musa) and the Gospel (of 'Isa).

[4] Before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the Criterion (of judgment between right and wrong). Then those who reject Faith in the Signs of Allah will suffer the severest penalty, and Allah is Exalted in Might, Lord of Retribution.

[5] From Allah, verily nothing is hidden on earth or in the heavens.

I feel sad that so many people in this world are suffering from a mental abberation

I feel sorry for you too. serious.

Since you've probably never believed in reality, maybe you ought to try it sometime before telling others that it doesn't exist.

Who said reality doesn't exist?

If he's real and has something to say, he should be perfectly able to tell the rest

He actually did, it's you who do not want to hear. Quran is the ONLY book on Earth that stayed (and will stay) unslanted since it's brought down by Allah.

[Ask The Geezer]

[4] Before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the Criterion (of judgment between right and wrong). Then those who reject Faith in the Signs of Allah will suffer the severest penalty, and Allah is Exalted in Might, Lord of Retribution.

Looks like your the ones suffering the penalty. A world of rocks and sand isn't exactly my idea of a nice place to be. Sounds like what hell would be like if it existed. Which is probably why you all believe the way you do, you got nothing to lose or even look forward to.

Well, that's not exactly true either. You all think the way you do because you never bothered to think for yourselves. You let some book or some bonehead with no more sense than a goat do all your thinking for you.

[gerbick]

Isn't that a bit intolerant of any other belief out there?

How would you deal with somebody that doesn't believe in what you believe? It's just a simple inquiry.

ok, and I have to ask. What about Abraham? Isn't he the root of all of this anyway? He had a child with his wife and another woman, who was from Saudi Arabia, right? The Bible and Qu'ran as well as the Torah all have Moses, Jesus, Abraham. Yet they all say they're the "only religion"... ever thought they all have the same origin?

Anyway, religion aside... there just seems to be too much intolerance being preached and acted upon. This whole thing smacks of "an eye for an eye" to the tenth level.

Draw a cartoon, burn down an embassy. That's more like an "eye for a building"... not an equal exchange by a long shot. But freedom of speech is trying to be limited by one group, yet exploited by the other group.

All in the name of religion and some severe intolerance. The origin of these religous books can all be questioned. This isn't the thread for that.

This thread is all about the responses. And how it's truly over the top. Not equal. That's not too hard to understand. Now let's deal with that one topic first before adding more fuel to the fire.

[newhive]

you got nothing to lose or even look forward to.

Wrong. I didn't say that old, present or future Muslims are good in everyway that's not true, I always said "IF" they were good Muslims.

Muslims are in one of their weakest and worst period in this life, but not because they don't think like you (civilized people?), NO, it's just because they do not follow Allah guidance correctly (clarified by Quor'an and Prophet Muhammad).

And adixx..

Besides Israel is the only civilzed westernized country in the whole region.... by freakin' far. REMEMBER???

I'm not in the mood of loughing.

[gerbick]

Muslims are in one of their weakest and worst period in this life, but not because they don't think like you (civilized people?), NO, it's just because they do not follow Allah guidance correctly (clarified by Quor'an and Prophet Muhammad).

I'm seriously curious what do you mean by this. First time I've ever heard this, and just curious.

I promise, I mean no harm. Just outright curious.

[newhive]

I meant, Muslims, as far as I know, weren't that weak ever, I guess.

Somebody here talked about brainwashing of "someones", well it seems that you "west" took a vary good brain SHOWER, the last 100 years.

What do you know about "Islamic History", try this.


I can't find proper words than Qur'an:

This will be long but may be it'll give you an idea


Al-Imran - 186 - 200


[186] Ye shall certainly be tried and tested in your possessions and in your personal selves; and ye shall certainly hear much that will grieve you, from those who received the Book before you and from those who worship many gods. But if ye persevere patiently, and guard against evil, then that will be a determining factor in all affairs.

[187] And remember Allah took a Covenant from the People of the Book, to make it known and clear to mankind, and not to hide it; but they threw it away behind their backs, and purchased with it some miserable gain! and vile was the bargain they made!

[188] Think not that those who exult in what they have brought about, and love to be praised for what they have not done think not that they can escape the Penalty. For them is a Penalty grievous indeed.

[189] To Allah belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth; and Allah hath power over all things.

[190] Behold! in the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the alternation of Night and Day, there are indeed Signs for men of understanding.

[191] Men who celebrate the praises of Allah, standing, sitting, and lying down on their sides, and contemplate the (wonders of) creation in the heavens and the earth, (with the thought): "Our Lord! not for naught hast thou created (all) this! Glory to Thee! Give us salvation from the Penalty of the Fire.

[192] "Our Lord! any whom Thou dost admit to the Fire, truly Thou coverest with shame, and never will wrong-doers find any helpers!

[193] "Our Lord! we have heard the call of one calling (us) to Faith, `Believe ye in the Lord', and we have believed. Our Lord! forgive us our sins, blot out from us our iniquities, and take to Thyself our souls in the company of the righteous.

[194] "Our Lord! Grant us what Thou didst promise unto us through Thy Messengers, and save us from shame on the Day of Judgment; for Thou never breakest Thy promise."

[195] And their Lord hath accepted of them, and answered them: "Never will I suffer to be lost the work of any of you, be he male or female: ye are members, one of another; those who have left their homes, and were driven out therefrom, and suffered harm in My Cause, and fought and were slain, verily, I will blot out from them their iniquities, and admit them into Gardens with rivers flowing beneath - a reward from the Presence of Allah - and from His Presence is the best of rewards."

[196] Let not the strutting about of the Unbelievers through the land deceive thee:

[197] Little is it for enjoyment: their ultimate abode is Hell; what an evil bed (to lie on)!

[198] On the other hand, for those who fear their Lord, are Gardens, with rivers flowing beneath; therein are they to dwell (for ever), a gift from the Presence of Allah, and that which is in the Presence of Allah is the best (bliss) for the righteous.

[199] And there are, certainly, among the People of the Book, those who believe in Allah, in the revelation to you, and in the revelation to them, bowing in humility to Allah: they will not sell the Signs of Allah for a miserable gain! for them is a reward with their Lord, and Allah is swift in account.

[200] O ye who believe! persevere in patience and constancy; vie in such perseverance; strengthen each other; and fear Allah; that ye may prosper.


---------------------------------------------------

And : AlAhqaf - 20

---------------------------------------------------

[20] And on the Day that the Unbelievers will be placed before the Fire, (it will be said to them): "Ye received your good things in the life of the world, and ye took your pleasure out of them: but to-day shall ye be recompensed with a Penalty of humiliation: for that ye were arrogant on earth without just cause, and that ye (ever) transgressed."

-----------------------
Source: http://quran.al-islam.com


This life is a test either you succeed or fail.

[Adixx]

And adixx..
I'm not in the mood of loughing.

so don't, but go ahead and explain what country in that entire region gives it's citizens (citizen from Israeli/Arab/American/European descent) a complete set of freedoms excercised in all western countries. Men & Women... Where? I'm talking about freedom of religious expression... freedom of speech...etc.

[newhive]

How would you deal with somebody that doesn't believe in what you believe? It's just a simple inquiry.

Let him do it, respect his freedom of choice, do not try to insult, offence, or mock of him...

[gerbick]

Let him do it, respect his freedom of choice, do not try to insult, offence, or mock of him...

That's fair.

But wouldn't you say that the above quote about the "severe penalty" for not following the Qu'ran and Allah would lead to intolerance much akin to how the extremist Christians say "if you're not a Christian/Baptist/member of my church, then you're going to hell" type of statements that are oft reverberated in the media? (think Pat Robertson)

Just leaves too much room for interpretation and justification for a lot of the things that continue on in the name of religion, but are really in the name of extreme fanaticism at best.

[XU1]

Newhive:

Muslims should understand that many people do NOT share the same convictions as you, they DON'T believe that your prophet was THE last messenger and that they DON'T believe or accept your Quran, just the same as there are many people who DON'T believe or accept the Bible.

If some one insulted my religion or Prophet ( in my case it would be Jesus ) I have the right to be insulted, and the right to demonstrate, but NOT the right to kill, Muslims cannot and should not try and impose those teachings THEY hold in the Quran on others who DON'T follow Islam, especially in non Islamic Countries.

Untill you people come around to this way of thinking, and let God ( Allah) do the punishing in the afterlife ect, *( AND NOT TAKE IT UPON THEMSELVES TO BE GODS EXECUTIONER )* then there will be no way forward in relations.

Any way you would think that there were more important things to fix in the lives of Muslims and their countries than to exert all that energy of hatred on a cartoon.........fair dinkum mate, the behaviour of torching buildings and the rage is just incoprehendible........and stupid over a flippin cartoon image.

Would the rage be the same if the cartoon image was with Muhammad holding a Sword? I suspect not...go figure.

Any one who takes offence so easily is just plain stupid and childish in my view...God can look after those who Blaspehme against him....remember he created everything and is all powerful.

iTony

[Ask The Geezer]

Muslims are in one of their weakest and worst period in this life, but not because they don't think like you (civilized people?), NO, it's just because they do not follow Allah guidance correctly (clarified by Quor'an and Prophet Muhammad).

You don't think it could be because their following some radical mullah or one of their warlords or tribal leaders with his own agenda? You just take it for gospel that it couldn't be because none of them think for themselves on issues that matter in this world?

There's nothing wrong with wondering what's going to happen in the next world, if you believe that way, but your not in the next world yet. Sounds like your counting your lentils before they grow by blowing up this world to get a better seat in the next.

[newhive]

But wouldn't you say that the above quote about the "severe penalty" for not following the Qu'ran and Allah would lead to intolerance much akin to how the extremist Christians say "if you're not a Christian/Baptist/member of my church, then you're going to hell" type of statements that are oft reverberated in the media? (think Pat Robertson)

I don't know the guy.

When you look to a religion (or anything) look at it as a whole, if you really want to know about it don't just "pick" what gives others who don't have any idea about it, a bad impression. That's exactly what YOUR media does.

Allah gave the "choice" of beleive to everybody, giving promise of eternal paradise or eternel hell.


Alkahf 29 - 31

[29] Say, "The Truth is from your Lord": Let him who will, believe, and let him who will, reject (it): for the wrong-doers We have prepared a Fire whose (smoke and flames), like the wall and roof of a tent, will hem them in: if they implore relief they will be granted water like melted brass, that will scald their faces: How dreadful the drink! how uncomfortable a couch to recline on!

[30] As to those who believe and work righteousness, verily We shall not suffer to perish the reward of any who do a (single) righteous deed.

[31] For them will be Gardens of Eternity; beneath them rivers will flow; they will be adorned therein with bracelets of gold, and they will wear green garments of fine silk and heavy brocade; they will recline therein on raised thrones. How good the recompense! How beautiful a couch to recline on!


Also Albaqarah 256 - 257


[256] Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects Evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things.

[257] Allah is the protector of those who have faith: from the depths of darkness He will lead them forth into light. Of those who reject faith the patrons are the Evil Ones: from light they will lead them forth into the depths of darkness. They will be Companions of the Fire, to dwell therein (forever).

[gerbick]

Quoting the Qu'ran is a lot like quoting the Bible. It's all about person interpretation. That's the part about how in the Middle East you have some radical mullahs spouting out fatwah's and jihads.

In the rest of the world, you have some radical Christians spouting out evangelism and revivals... pretty much extreme - but not strap a bomb to yourself type of extreme.

My point... the quotes - thank you for them - they tend to lose their effect because of the poetic language it's written in to the western audience. What you bolded though, seems like it's a call to rid yourself of all western influence due to their ultimate conclusion, a nice free trip to Hell.

But the question I had earlier, still remains. How do you deal with somebody that doesn't believe in what you believe in? You answered, but how do you get Hamas and Israel to recognize each other?

How do you get the Sunni's and Shi'ites (sp?) to play along? How do you separate the fundamentalist from the orthodox? How do you get the protestants and the catholics? How do you get the baptists and the lutheran to play along?

It's quite amazing how the one thing that mentions God/Allah is the one thing that's splitting people down the middle - well that and a bit o' land.

It's all about who's going to belly up to a table and try to solve as oppose to bomb each other.

And biggest thing... why in the heck would the response would the burning of flags and such as opposed to something that's equal to an offensive cartoon?

I know of some cartoons out today that are racist, sexist, and totally offensive. All I did was write a letter stating the offense.

No burning effigies, no burning buildings/embassies/churches... just a letter stating my offense and I got a response and apology.

Is it that serious? Is what I did not pretty much an "equal response"?

[Ask The Geezer]

and vile was the bargain they made! For them is a Penalty grievous indeed. and Allah hath power over all things. and never will wrong-doers find any helpers! and from His Presence is the best of rewards. Let not the strutting about of the Unbelievers through the land deceive thee Little is it for enjoyment: their ultimate abode is Hell; what an evil bed (to lie on)! and fear Allah; that ye may prosper.

Oh puleeese. Don't you see that for what it is? Grow up. Pull your head out of the sand and look around, cause none of that has ever happened. Or ever will. Man makes his own bed to lie in. Man is the culprit here, your fellow man is the one that you should fear. Your following the word of an old boogie man story to scare children. Get a life.

[newhive]

What you bolded though, seems like it's a call to rid yourself of all western influence due to their ultimate conclusion, a nice free trip to Hell.

If this was true I wouldn't be still talking to you right now.

It's quite amazing how the one thing that mentions God/Allah is the one thing that's splitting people down the middle - well that and a bit o' land.

For Muslims, I said the reason for being weak and separated.
And do not ignore the history, were everything was different, Muslims were up, Europe was down at sometime. So don't judge the present, forgetting the past. Civilizations go up and down through time.

Is it that serious?

More than you think.

Is what I did not pretty much an "equal response"?

If these were to bring the proper appologie, we would simply done it.
But no, you know why? because the "freedom of speech" should be above ANY limits.
Everyone else now or in the future would repeat it. Because he would know then, we, the Muslims are asleep, or just don't care or worse agree.

This should be taken VERY seriously.

[gerbick]

If this was true I wouldn't be still talking to you right now.

Don't follow. I'm not in your native lands, despite spending plenty of time in Turkey and Egypt in the past, as well as Northern Africa - Algeria and Morocco mostly. So my statement was that your quote makes it seem like you want any westerners out of your lands. Not on the internet, which has no boundaries.

Now are we clear?

For Muslims, I said the reason for being weak and separated.

Due to Israel being situated where it's at? Or something else? This is still not clear to me.

And do not ignore the history, were everything was different, Muslims were up, Europe was down at sometime. So don't judge the present, forgetting the past. Civilizations go up and down through time.

My ancestry hails from Algeria. I'm about as far from European descent as you could ever get - at least 3/4ths of my family history that is. One part of my family tree lands in Europe, but society sees me as a black man - same color as Anwar Sadat actually.

More than you think.

And this is what leads to fanaticism. Almost like that part of the world can burn in effigy whomever they pick, the US has been called the "Great Satan" for near 30 years, my whole lifetime, and yet... we didn't burn Khomeini likelihoods nor burn any flags; despite it happening to anybody you could point to in the US that was the head of our country.

Again, it doesn't seem like a "equal response"... perhaps if we went and actually followed the letter of the Bible that would bring back Crusades and other conquests in the name of religious intolerance then we'd be talking in the same language?

There isn't any equality to the response from my point of view. All I see is a "it's very serious" but not a rational reason other than it pissed people off. But when it's done by other countries and the US is the target... "it's ok". How fair is that!?

If these were to bring the proper appologie, we would simply done it.

Before the riots, did anybody see the apology? After the riots, did anybody see the apology? Before the embassy being burned down in Damascus, did anybody see the apology? After the embassy was burned down in Damascus, did anybody see the apology?

Can you state that it wasn't proper enough based on what criteria?

But no, you know why? because the "freedom of speech" should be above ANY limits.

So... I have a right to start a yankee jihad and start bombing people because my freedom of speech and my fight against my oppressors should be heard by all?

That extreme freedom of speech goes both ways.

But as it stands on this subject, the cartoonist apologized, has made more than one statement, yet it's unresolved. If he drew himself in a similar situation, would it be enough of an apology? That's an equal thing. And yet, it would invariably not be enough.

What I see is an outright exploit on the principal of freedom of speech. A cartoon incites a riot, the cartoonist apologizes. Should have been the end of it. But it wasn't. Not by a long shot.

Yet, all of the editorial cartoons, television shows, and news propaganda/articles have yet to cease in muslim countries, but you want it to cease everywhere else. Lead by example perhaps? Or allow what you're claiming as "freedom of speech"... it goes both ways. Not just in the way that you wish to allow. And honestly, in this case, the apology wasn't sufficient based on whatever reasons given; however there doesn't seem to be any way to make this situation better/resolved.

What would make this situation go away?

Everyone else now or in the future would repeat it. Because he would know then, we, the Muslims are asleep, or just don't care or worse agree.

Doubtful. A cartoon got an embassy burned down to the ground. What would a t-shirt or any other commercial thing create? The consequences are insane. And there is no appeasing anybody. Islam rules this taboo. Christianity rules this taboo. Judaism... aw hell, I won't even go there.

Hell, it just seems like the entire world is just as guilty of the one thing that the US is constantly blamed for... trying to coerce the media and public responses to be what they think it should be... as they think it should be.

This was just a tasteless cartoon. Many apologies later, all I see is continued anger. What would solve this? I mean, seriously.

[Visionray]

If these were to bring the proper appologie, we would simply done it.
But no, you know why? because the "freedom of speech" should be above ANY limits.
Everyone else now or in the future would repeat it. Because he would know then, we, the Muslims are asleep, or just don't care or worse agree.

What is a "proper" apology?

And from who?

You think western governments should apologize for their free press?

[Ask The Geezer]

Because he would know then, we, the Muslims are asleep, or just don't care or worse agree.

The truth is more like with 70% unemployment, you got nothing else to do but burn rags and other peoples buildings. Your not pissed at the west, your pissed at your own plight and don't dare say so out loud.