I'm Norwegian and I have nothing against Islam

[gerbick]

Newhive, allow me to also thank you for discussing calmly everything from your point of view.

It is very adult, and very much welcome. Thank you.

[indivision]

Id also like to thank newhive for his input here so far. Its definitely interesting.

Ill add that I think your initial post in this thread set up a premise based on a very simplistic idea about "the west". You said that we have nothing to live for beyond this life and are only about worldly things. That is definitely not true. There are many, many people of all kinds of faith throughout the west. Even a person who doesn't believe in a traditional religion can have their own faith and spirituality. The difference is that we believe each person should have the right to choose what they are going to live for after this life or to not live that way if they choose. Just because its not state sponsored doesnt mean its not happening.

[newhive]

Thank you.

The appology as I see it is (after the government and the newspaper appology) is to punish the newspaper or even close it, or even better putting a law that prevents it to happen in the future.

I know this may seem odd to you, but not impossible to me. Not because we Muslims are the Untouchables of this universe, no, just as I said because it's is extreamly offensive to our beleives, just as closing a newspaper in a "free" country, or yet more. Also it's a "precedent", and we want it to not to be repeated, ever.

I do not represent any country or government, just my opinion.

One thing to make clear here, I didn't ever said anything about bombings, or terrorism. My opinion is to begin by a large Islamic boycott to Denmark AND who ever publishes these cartoons, along with political pressure, till we get that appology (hopefully a law).

My defence is not targeted againest US, (only in this issue), just againest the non-limit freedom of speech.

Does requesting (and insisting) a mutual respect of beleives considered another way of "non limit freedom of speech" ?

God can look after those who Blaspehme against him....remember he created everything and is all powerful.

Then what would be the meaning of life if "God" just does everything, why all this pain, hate, wars?

We should at least "try" to fix bad things in this life, as much as we can.

As I said, I (and Muslims) beleive this life is a test, either you succeed or fail. Allah left us the freedom of choice to live and act in this life with kind guidance like (Tawrah, Engeel(bible), and Qur'an). But didn't left us to do everything either. Somethings Allah himself handles even if that takes time.

[XU1]

[QUOTE=newhive]Thank you.

The appology as I see it is (after the government and the newspaper appology) is to punish the newspaper or even close it, or even better putting a law that prevents it to happen in the future.

I don't think that will happen, and really you should not expect it to happen.

I know this may seem odd to you, but not impossible to me. Not because we Muslims are the Untouchables of this universe, no, just as I said because it's is extreamly offensive to our beleives, just as closing a newspaper in a "free" country, or yet more. Also it's a "precedent", and we want it to not to be repeated, ever.

And by doing this you open up the floodgates for every group, religion, and organization to have "their" piece of legislation to ensure that they are protected from being offended.

This would never stop, why should you get preferential treatment over an issue that in the end is a matter of faith and personal belief?

And equally then, the request should also be made for the Mullahs to stop calling for the death and killing of Jews from your mosques, that is equaly offensive and repugnant to ordinary people.....regardless of what you may think of the Jews.

One thing to make clear here, I didn't ever said anything about bombings, or terrorism. My opinion is to begin by a large Islamic boycott to Denmark AND who ever publishes these cartoons, along with political pressure, till we get that appology (hopefully a law).

You got an apology from the editors of the papers in Denmark, how much more of an apology do you need? why do you need an apology from their Government? Why should they apologise to the Muslims for what a paper has printed?

Is it because you want to see them being remorseful? or do you want them to repent in shame?

Then what would be the meaning of life if "God" just does everything, why all this pain, hate, wars?

Pain, Hate and War is the making of imperfect man, and only God can and will change it in due course ( What I believe anyway)

That is the point I was trying to make, some things ONLY God can handle, some things we use our intelligence and work out, but only God can exact vengeance when it comes to Sins concerning life and death..not Man.

And if your holy book teaches that you should kill any one who blasphemes, what makes it more superior to the beliefs of others who don't believe this is so?

You see your beliefs are just that,... your beliefs, you can be convinced that your religion is the true way and the only way, but that is what it is, YOUR convictions.

There are many other religious people who are convinced just as equaly, and who have died, and will die for their belief in their God, why should yours be above those?

If your God tells you you can Kill some one for making an image of your prophet, that is your God, not mine, many people do not even believe that there is a God.

So what is an authority to you is not an authority to others, you cannot impose the standards and judgement of your personal beliefs on other people who dont share those convictions.

We don't live in a theocracy, when we do then God will be the ultimate Judge not man

As I said, I (and Muslims) beleive this life is a test, either you succeed or fail. Allah left us the freedom of choice to live and act in this life with kind guidance like (Tawrah, Engeel(bible), and Qur'an). But didn't left us to do everything either. Somethings Allah himself handles even if that takes time.

Yes, and God ( Allah) gives us life, and is the ONLY one who can take it away.

iTony

[swampy]

[QUOTE=XU1]

So what is an authority to you is not an authority to others, you cannot impose the standards and judgement of your personal beliefs on other people who dont share those convictions.

although we are sure as hell trying to do so in Afghanistan and Iraq

Yes, and God ( Allah) gives us life, and is the ONLY one who can take it away.

iTony

hmmm, previous posts by yourself over the years seem somewhat contradictory

[XU1]

[QUOTE=swampy][QUOTE=XU1]

although we are sure as hell trying to do so in Afghanistan and Iraq

But is it religious...or secular?

hmmm, previous posts by yourself over the years seem somewhat contradictory

Read them carefully then, because In the "Tookie" thread I maintained that I believe that only God has the right to take away life.

My argument there was with the value of one life over another, not with "who" had the right to take it, even though the states had had been given that right my means of the majority..

iTony

[swampy]

[QUOTE=XU1][QUOTE=swampy]

But is it religious...or secular?



Read them carefully then, because In the "Tookie" thread I maintained that I believe that only God has the right to take away life.

My argument there was with the value of one life over another, not with "who" had the right to take it, even though the states had had been given that right my means of the majority..

iTony

I tend not to read anything carefully, it helps to maintain my cantancerous disposition

[flipsideguy]

But is it religious...or secular?
iTony

To quote the president who initiated those two wars (Afghanistan & Iraq)

"Religion is an important part. I never want to impose my religion on anybody else. But when I make decisions I stand on principle. And the principles are derived from who I am. I believe we ought to love our neighbor like we love ourself. That's manifested in public policy through the faith-based initiative where we've unleashed the armies of compassion to help heal people who hurt. I believe that God wants everybody to be free. That's what I believe. And that's one part of my foreign policy. In Afghanistan I believe that the freedom there is a gift from the Almighty. And I can't tell you how encouraged how I am to see freedom on the march. And so my principles that I make decisions on are a part of me. And religion is a part of me."
--Third Presidential Debate, Tempe, AZ, October 13, 2004

This is a pretty contradictory statement. But he sure as hell sounds extreme, and hell bent on imposing his religion on Afghanistan.

/Flip

[indivision]

[QUOTE=swampy]

although we are sure as hell trying to do so in Afghanistan and Iraq

not really. the previous regimes had certainly done so. if what you say is true, women would not be joining the work-force and going to school in Afghanistan and the people wouldn't bother to vote in Iraq.

[swampy]

[QUOTE=indivision]

not really. the previous regimes had certainly done so. if what you say is true, women would not be joining the work-force and going to school in Afghanistan and the people wouldn't bother to vote in Iraq.

Whatever way you look at it we are invading sovereign states and killing people in their thousands to impose a belief system on people

[newhive]

The difference is that we believe each person should have the right to choose what they are going to live for after this life or to not live that way if they choose. Just because its not state sponsored doesnt mean its not happening.

Agree, but I think you should add "with a respect to each others guarenteed". For everybody.

[admedia]

[indivision]

There are also instances where freedom of speech is afforded to muslims that not everyone is ok with but they are still protected. Anyone else catch that episode of "30 days" where the christian has to live as a muslim for 30 days to see what its like? The muslim community had set up a tower that broadcasted some kind of prayer several times a day that was so loud you could hear it throughout the entire neighborhood. Many people didnt appreciate this for obvious reasons, but they didnt go burning down town hall or anything.

[newhive]

What you are referring to is Muslim "Athan" which is calling for prayer, and is held 5 times a day each day, and contains no insult for anybody in anyway, it's not even targeted to non-Muslim, it's a call for prayer to inform Muslims that prayer time is on.

It's very normal in the Arab countries, for both Muslims, Christians and Jews.

I don't have to mention that we Muslims here, are very ok with ringing Church's bells More than 5 times a day, that is happening.

I may agree with you just for voices being too loud to harm the neighboors sometimes, and this is something even some Muslims complain about.

[XU1]

I don't have to mention that we Muslims here, are very ok with ringing Church's bells More than 5 times a day, that is happening.

What..at five in the morning? I don't think so..


iTony

[Ask The Geezer]

It's very normal in the Arab countries, for both Muslims, Christians and Jews.

How many arab countries have Jews living in them?

Just think, that part of your religion never would have happened if you'd settled a place like Northern Minnisota, or say, Siberia. Wonder how long 5 times a day prayer would last if you had to trudge through 4 feet of snow to get there.

[swampy]

How many arab countries have Jews living in them?

Just think, that part of your religion never would have happened if you'd settled a place like Northern Minnisota, or say, Siberia. Wonder how long 5 times a day prayer would last if you had to trudge through 4 feet of snow to get there.

Palestine?

and yes, ther are muslims living in countries that have snow!!!!!123OMG Norway has snow, and muslims. As does Siberia.

[Visionray]

Palestine?

Palestine isn't a country.

On a different topic, I don't understand why anyone feels the need for apologies. What do they actually accomplish? I mean in this case, you have already had several newspapers and even western governments issue apologies on behalf of those newspapers.

Newhive, your suggestion that western governments apologize by shutting down newspapers and creating a law that prohibits these types of publications is a little absurd to say the least, and shows a general lack of understanding of the concept of free press in democratic societies and what people will do to retain it. It just ain't gonna happen. At the most you will get a public apology that is hollow in the first place, and obviously won't do any good in quelling any protests as we have seen.

The only proper way to apologize according to Muslims is for the West to start stripping down the very foundations of their democracy. And the only response your going to get with demands like that is MORE publications from those countries, so they can demonstrate the free press they have, hence why these cartoons actually were commissioned and reprinted across Europe in the first place.

What I'm trying to say is, you're fighting a losing battle.

[swampy]

Palestine isn't a country.

I know, that was my point

[Visionray]

I know, that was my point

oh sorry lol, that one flew over my head.