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Thread: New Opportunities in Prison

  1. #21
    HUH? pea3698's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by indivision
    they were decent. the problem is that society seems to have a hard time separating what is a backdrop for a heartwarming story and reality.
    I totally aggree with the issue of people being so damn gullable that they can't separate reality from fiction. But that could be an entire thread on itself.
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  2. #22
    Peace - Just in Heaven koolbabs2000's Avatar
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    we shouldn't really be compelled to cheer them on because they got together and organized their own little soap-box derby.
    Nobody compelled anybody here brother...
    An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind
    - The Mahatma.

  3. #23
    Phantom Flasher... Markp.com's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by koolbabs2000
    Nobody compelled anybody here brother...
    Desmond? Is that you?

  4. #24
    HUH? pea3698's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by indivision
    Anyway, what does it suggest? That society should be careful not to anger a criminal further .
    Once a person goes to prison or jail they are no longer in society. So no, society should not be careful, society should keep thier noses out of the prison systems business, and let it do what it is in place to do.

    When someone is sentanced to prison, they....
    .... are sent there for a certain period of time. After that period of time what do you want them to do, the same stuff over again or maybe realize that they have better avenues to take.

    we shouldn't really be compelled to cheer them on.
    Heck no, don't cheer thier butts on, society needs to let the prison system do what they do and keep thier noses out of it.

    Then again there is a slight problem with this process. If society had kept thier noses out of it all along then torturous behavior and what not would be very widely accepted. This is really a twist issue with lots of rights a wrongs as is most big issues out there.
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  5. #25
    http://www.flipshark.com flipshark's Avatar
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    I didn't read the whole article, but I read the original posters comment about how the founder killed his mum with a hammer.

    I'm sorry, but I think he should be locked in a box so small he can't move his hands or feet to scratch his own itchs.. not allowed to start his own tv show.

    Oh no, he might get angrier if prison isn't a walk in the park.. what are we afraid he might move from hammer to sledgehammer on his next victim?

    I don't think violent criminals should be treated like humans... every human wants to kill/hurt/mame someone at some point.. be it their boss, wife/husband, boy/girlfriend, kids, parents, family, or neighbour, but once you cross the line and actually do it.. you're not human any more as far as I'm concerned.

  6. #26
    HUH? pea3698's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flipshark
    I didn't read the whole article, but I read the original posters comment about how the founder killed his mum with a hammer.

    I'm sorry, but I think he should be locked in a box so small he can't move his hands or feet to scratch his own itchs.. not allowed to start his own tv show.

    Oh no, he might get angrier if prison isn't a walk in the park.. what are we afraid he might move from hammer to sledgehammer on his next victim?

    I don't think violent criminals should be treated like humans... every human wants to kill/hurt/mame someone at some point.. be it their boss, wife/husband, boy/girlfriend, kids, parents, family, or neighbour, but once you cross the line and actually do it.. you're not human any more as far as I'm concerned.
    As I stated earlier . . .
    Now when it comes to life sentences I think they should be cut off.
    Murder is a life sentence in most cases so my replies regarding exposure to skills and the outside world would not apply to that person. My comments are in regards to less violent offenders. Murderers, rapists, child molesters/kidnappers .... All deserve to rot in a small dark room in my opinion.

    So we actually aggree you just didn't read my post right.
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  7. #27
    associate admedia's Avatar
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    indivision, I made an avatar for you

  8. #28
    Senior Member whispers's Avatar
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    How many of you have ever been to prison?..or even a REAL extended stay in a jail? (yes they are different)

    I do NOT condone the harming others..and I think some of the punishments SHOULD be that harsh....however most punishments do NOT fit the crime. "AND".... if your "sentence" has the possibility that one day you will return to society....then their SHOULD be progams in place to make the productive when they return.

    This "proram" they let them do.....so? be happy they are focusing their efforts into things that are NOT destuctive...gives the some self-worth maybe they change their outlook..and see being LEGAL can be productive.

  9. #29
    HUH? pea3698's Avatar
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    Whispers you hit the nail on the head in my opinion. I have had an encounter with a type of lockdown. I went military and while in bootcamp some things from years past came up from when I was in high school so I got pulled out. Before you can go home though you have to go to a place called Seps. You stay there until your paperwork is processed and then they send you home. Ok so i'm stuck in Seps with murderers, thieves, drug dealers, you know that type. I was there for pulling a prank nothing more honestly. But normally your stay there is aproximatly 1 week long. My paper work kept getting messed up and my stay was two months. I speak from experiece about the cycle that runs when you sit around and think about going back to home. Realizing that your life is going to be very very hard to get through for a while. Plus I was separated from everything on the outside for that two months (yes this is a very short stay, but the effects it had on me were very much long term) Mentally speaking you go through every emotion but mostly the bad ones.
    So I went in as someone that had just started his adult life and had something drug up from when he was a "kid". I came angrier at everyone, spiteful, suspecting. I still 8 years later feel some of the effects on my personality just from that short stay.

    Really the only thing that got me through it was a work detail type thing they did twice a week. Without that I dont know how I would have come out of it.
    So I say for people that are getting out, there should deffinitly be programs or they will come out far worse than when they went in.
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  10. #30
    Total Universe Mod jAQUAN's Avatar
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    I agree with what the Tick said earlier. The school system seems to skip very important steps. Why not spend the first few years teaching kids life values, reasoning and learning skills, self esteem and a little philosophy? You could hold off on math and english until the 2nd or 3rd grade, and by that time kids would so much better equiped for learning that they'd surpass the level of education most kids graduate with by the time they are freshman.

    As far as jail sentences go, why do we even put people away? IMO it's because they have demonstrated an inibility to make wise decisions. If prison is going to serve any purpose at all, it should be part punishment, and part rehabilitation (without the re-).
    If we don't intend to solve the crime problem by influencing criminals to lead better lives we are better off hanging the lot of em.

    btw, my comments don't involve murderers, that's a different issue all together

  11. #31
    Flashkit historian Frets's Avatar
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    The problem is when you try to teach life values some religious wacko is sitting around the corner saying your preaching religion in schools
    (even if technically your teaching ethics)

    Unfortunately having a course in ethics does not make one more ethical. The guiding forces when a crime is commited are
    Heat of passion
    Thought they could get away from it.

    Genetics most likely contributes more to the likelyhood of criminal development then environment or education.

    If one thinks that the fear of doing time is a deterrent. Then one should look at states where penalties are higher for crimes (California for example)
    States where the death penalty is law have a higher crime rate (not lower) then states per capita who do not have the death penalty.

    At one point or another a criminal whom has served due time is released (or earler based on prison capacity) That individual must return to a society which not only rejected him/her but continues to reject him or her. (ever try to get a job with a felony?) If the individual cannot rehabilitate him/herself (don't look twards prisons
    prisioners would rather coach you on being a better criminal) and find stable employment/general acceptance what are thier options?

    Not many
    They could always commit a crime and go back to a society that accepts them for what they are have three squares a day a bed and a roof over thier head which may not seem like much to some but it does to a homeless person who can't find employement or housing because of a criminal record.

  12. #32
    Banned indivision's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by admedia
    indivision, I made an avatar for you
    lol

    how did you know that was scheduled for next week?!

    you hear these rationalizations for criminal behavior and nice, neat theories about what affect prison has on them and what we could really be doing. but, they never really reflect or address the real situation. the simple fact is, there are plenty of criminals, if not most, who ALREADY know what they can do in society. They want to do that stuff in prison, not because its new and exciting, but because they MISS doing it on the outside. In order for these rehabilitation theories to have weight, criminals would all have to fit into some red-headed step-child with a hunch-back that nobody ever did a favor for model. A criminal that is a person who is unaware of good values or is just lacking in esteem is a rare exception, not the rule.

    Why is it so difficult for people to accept that people are responsible for their actions?!

  13. #33
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    the funny thing is that we have a discussion in germany right now that has to do with what jaquan suggested: to make it the main task of schools to provide values.
    teachers here complain that an increasing number of kids come to school with serious social inabilities. kids that can't communicate themselves to others because they have no idea who they themselves are and how to cope with their environment. many teachers say that they or school in general can perform both a school and a life education (sorry, don't know how to put it more precisely).
    i think they are right. teachers cannot be teachers and parents at the same time for hundreds of kids.
    and i think it's here, in the individual homes, that the trouble starts. so it might be that there is a certain genetic disposition for crime (or another definition of crime: not adhering to the rules society has constructed), but more important, i think, is the influence that the individuals' social surroundings have.
    if your family does not provide you with the tools to cope with life and with society, where else could you get them? you would probably not even know where to look for...

    i argue that the prerequisites for criminal behavior are mainly laid within the families, by the parents, and then by the surroundings (friends, role models, etc).
    on the other hand, economic systems have a lot of influence on people's lives. and the lower you are in the economic food chain, the more pressure you feel. so i understand that it is hard for especially those parents to raise children and give them proper values. since most us live in such a food chain society, i'd say that individuals turning against society is inseperable from society turning against individuals.
    i'm not excusing criminal behavior. but what i say is that dismissing criminal behavior as a purely individual, rational and conscious choice (as i have the feeling indivison [nice thread, btw] did in his posts) is often out of touch with reality (and i'm talking about crime in general here, not contract killers or such).

    now i''ll let my thoughts drift a little, it's gonna be about Marx:
    i'm not a big fan of capitalism and the way it obviously evolves. i think it puts a lot of pressure on many people, fragments society and makes for less coherence. people get increasingly alienated from "the system", thus from its values.
    to Karl Marx, known of course mainly for his economic studies, it was also very important that "his" society would be one in which every individual had the right and the possibility to personal growth and self-fulfillment/self-realization. he saw job specialization (man, i just don't know how to put this in english) as one of the factors of alienation, and he said that people should do whatever they feel like. analogously he wrote that he wanted to be able to go fishing in the morning, and maybe hunting at noon and in the afternoon work as a shoemaker.
    now, whether that's realistic or not does not matter, the point is that Marx puts emphasis on the individuals' inner balance.
    our current society does not really enforce inner strength and balance, and this is, i think, the core of criminal behavior.
    finally, i'm done...thanks for the patience ;-)

    [edit]
    indivision: i agree with what you said about everyone being responsible for their actions. but also, everyone is a product of society. so, it's not that easy sometimes...
    Last edited by theTick; 02-16-2006 at 07:20 PM.
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  14. #34
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    just one more thing, and then i'm going to shut up for a while:
    i think we are trying to grasp the crime phenomenon on a general level. yet it can probably only be debated on an individual level, i.e. you have to take each case and find out what categories of judgement can be reasonably applied and what measures have to be taken. for this, the world has too many people and too few lawyers ;-)
    i guess we will never work out a legal system that is going to be fair and take into account each individual's disposition...
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  15. #35
    I'm the good one! XU1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flipshark
    I didn't read the whole article, but I read the original posters comment about how the founder killed his mum with a hammer.

    I'm sorry, but I think he should be locked in a box so small he can't move his hands or feet to scratch his own itchs.. not allowed to start his own tv show.

    Oh no, he might get angrier if prison isn't a walk in the park.. what are we afraid he might move from hammer to sledgehammer on his next victim?

    I don't think violent criminals should be treated like humans... every human wants to kill/hurt/mame someone at some point.. be it their boss, wife/husband, boy/girlfriend, kids, parents, family, or neighbour, but once you cross the line and actually do it.. you're not human any more as far as I'm concerned.
    Flipshark? is this you?........

    Maybe now that the conservatives have won an election...Canada is starting to speak its mind....

    iTony

  16. #36
    I'm the good one! XU1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frets

    Genetics most likely contributes more to the likelyhood of criminal development then environment or education.
    Italians....theres no hope for them now.....


    iTony

  17. #37
    I'm the good one! XU1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by theTick

    now i''ll let my thoughts drift a little, it's gonna be about Marx:
    i'm not a big fan of capitalism and the way it obviously evolves. i think it puts a lot of pressure on many people, fragments society and makes for less coherence. people get increasingly alienated from "the system", thus from its values.
    to Karl Marx, known of course mainly for his economic studies, it was also very important that "his" society would be one in which every individual had the right and the possibility to personal growth and self-fulfillment/self-realization. he saw job specialization (man, i just don't know how to put this in english) as one of the factors of alienation, and he said that people should do whatever they feel like. analogously he wrote that he wanted to be able to go fishing in the morning, and maybe hunting at noon and in the afternoon work as a shoemaker.
    now, whether that's realistic or not does not matter, the point is that Marx puts emphasis on the individuals' inner balance.
    our current society does not really enforce inner strength and balance, and this is, i think, the core of criminal behavior.
    finally, i'm done...thanks for the patience ;-)
    And why his ideas were packaged as commusism is beyond belief...they should have been in the fairy tale section of history......Cause everything he wrote and believed was perfect....in theory.


    iTony

  18. #38
    FK'n Elitist Super Mod EVPohovich's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XU1
    Italians.....
    Youz rang?

  19. #39
    Flashkit historian Frets's Avatar
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    The individual can fight certain aspects genetics society can't. I came from a long line of alcoholics,,,, I don't drink I do have an addictive personality. about the only thing I'm addicted to is caffiene.

    Values are passed on genetically as well as in the family's belief system which should be taught by the parents to the child. Regardless of how much ethical training one may recieve there will always be a black sheep in the family.

    I've also never bought into the low self esteem crap. People with low self esteem are
    not automatically criminals and I've seen a lot of criminals whom are quite proud of what they've accomplished.

  20. #40
    I'm the good one! XU1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EVPohovich
    Youz rang?
    eeeei paisano...fat Tony is that you, I taut youz was in the slammer?


    iTony

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