Fact About Islam

[TheOriginalFlashDavo]

Sorry one more question:
Before Muhammed came on the scene, was it a common practice to marry six year old girls in the Islamic faith?

Or even in the local culture at all?

And wouldn't that have been an answer to find out before saying that someone - anyone - from that time was a peodephile??

Just a thought.

And if it wasn't accepted practice then I will join you in asking why someone would worship a peodephile, but until I find that out for sure I'll show some respect for someone else's beliefs, just quietly...

[koolbabs2000]

Learning new stuff... now that's higher up on my list.

- Yes i agree, there is no end to learning.

What i dont like about the followers of the faith -
1. Women forced to wear the veil (burqa)
2. A man taking up 4 wives.
3. Triple talaaq

[Visionray]

Mohammeds days were harsh times. Throughout history women have been treated like second rate citizens all over the world. Look at the history of womens rights in the U.S. They were "respected", yet couldn't vote, had a hard time moving up the ladder, and were stuck to the roles of cook, cleaner, and sex object/baby factory. Indeed, there are still many people who think this is the ideal image of a woman. No wonder so many divorces happen in western nations. Women now have more options and getting divorced isn't as taboo. This is a good thing IMO, but theres still a long way to go.

So let's face facts and look at it objectively now. There is no doubt that womens rights in some Muslim nations are a few centuries behind. You can try to rationalize your oppression of women behind the veil of religion, but your main problem is that not to many people around the world believe that crap anymore.

It doesn't surprise me Mohammed would have a 9 year old wife and get away with it. They didn't have Human Rights Watch back then. It might have even been accepted by most people. This isn't something uniquely Muslim, and if he enjoyed sleeping with 9 year olds it doesn't mean much nowadays, unless it is taught in the Koran that this is morally acceptable (which I don't know).

So was he a pedophile? Most Likely. I read that link posted by Emm_Eye from Dubai. The artile tries justify his pedophilia with a mathematical formula: only a small percentage of Mohammed's wives were children, and thus, he's not a pedophile.

So let me ask you this, if you only rape one woman out of every 20 women you sleep with, are you still a rapist?

[TheOriginalFlashDavo]

So let's face facts and look at it objectively now. There is no doubt that womens rights in some Muslim nations are a few centuries behind. You can try to rationalize your oppression of women behind the veil of religion, but your main problem is that not to many people around the world believe that crap anymore.

I don't think many people would have issue with asking questions about justification for this kind of oppression nowadays, but all I would hope is that those who seek to condemn to realise that it's not just a characteristic of some Islamic based religions, even in our present world, but a few others as well.

It's a bit like the deaths of civilians, if someone is equally critical of its occurance no matter where it occurs then I certainly have no problem with that. All I've ever asked is a balanced critical view of things.

So was he a pedophile? Most Likely. I read that link posted by Emm_Eye from Dubai. The artile tries justify his pedophilia with a mathematical formula: only a small percentage of Mohammed's wives were children, and thus, he's not a pedophile.

I personally am not going to base my opinion on any one article. Now that I've learnt a little more about this area (his taking what we would regard as an underage wife) I'm certainly interested in finding out more on whether it was accepted practice back then, NOT if some fool is using a bad mathematical formula to justify it. Unfortunately my brief Google of the subject did not confirm the issue either way. One for more investigation it would seem (before accusation I would hope).

Innocent until proven guilty. We (the "west") harp on about such things as "democray", "equality" and "justice", but then seem over eager to accuse, label and vilify before we actually know the whole picture. And then wonder why we're regarded as hypocrits. I don't.

[cancerinform]

One cannot compare times several hundred years ago with present times.
1. The avarage life expectancy was much lower than nowadays. Married couples were much younger. Sexuality was performed at a much younger age.
2. The rituals, laws etc were very different. What we think is a crime, was not a crime then, but may have been generally accepted.

Already only looking at present times there is such a big difference among cultures and what is right and what is wrong. Leave them alone. It is a certain population's right to have their own culture. It is in my opinion western arrogance to criticise other cultures.

Regarding women, the US is still pretty far behind in women's rights compared to Northern Europe. And if you look at the christian religions they are not better than islam. In the US the extreme religious rights are openly propagating for a family picture, where the wife stays at home and cooks.

Karl Marx: Religion is opium.

[gerbick]

Ok... I'm going to state this now for all to consume publicly.

I've received a few complaints about the "moderators" stating things in a thread in a forum they don't even moderate in. I know what's next... "but they're a representative of Flashkit..."

Hear me out. They're a representative when they're outside of this forum and doing their job in the areas they were originally commissioned for. Rushvision, 3Primates... I'll vouch for both of them moreso than I'd vouch for myself here at Flashkit.

I've removed Rushvision's prior joke - I saw the humor in it. Apparently the complainers did not. However, as a moderator in this area, I went ahead and moved it - despite not really and fully believing in the complaint.

But I did so because I'm still a Coffee Lounge moderator. The aforementioned two are not. In this thread, I'm treating them like members. They were members before mods, and in a thread like this, a very informal thread, they are no different from whomever else participates in this thread. I don't read each and every post - amazingly enough - but I have asked very early on that people remain civil.

Now... here's the kicker. People can't discuss and ask parts of a religion that aren't too moderate, then for all reason's implicit, DON'T BRING IT UP AT FLASHKIT. I mean, if there are things you'd sooner complain about that upset people instead of explain it in a manner that personalizes the reasons why anger and misunderstanding aren't appropriate, then do so.

You can't use your own words, then bow out. I'm personally (as a member) am tired of seeing link upon link doled out like some copy and paste mantra... then seriously bow out. Not all discussions are made for you to respond.

And the whole "tip-toeing" around certain subjects... what's taboo, what should be edited, what can and can not be talked about here... that's just sad.

Can't allow different thinking about a situation that you'd sooner complain about than explain away in your own words... then seriously it's time to look at why you even allow it to exist in your life.

That's all. Remain civil. Answer where you can, discuss like adults, or just walk away.

This isn't aimed at anybody in particular. If it fits or smacked you in yrour face... then I might have been talking about you afterall.

[RUSHVision]

Yeah, my first post in this thread was very much outside my role as a moderator. I've got no problem whatsoever with that being removed since it's pretty far from the kind of thing I normally post, anyway.

[Visionray]

LOL - 50% of women who go to US universities get raped, that's sounds real accurate!

I guess blatant lying is one way of trying to win an argument. Just unfortunate that people believe what this guy says, and spread around his text on message boards as "fact".

[cancerinform]

It's about half. The statistics is difficult because of underreporting and sometimes not understanding that it was rape.

http://www.aauw.org/laf/library/assault_stats.cfm

[TheOriginalFlashDavo]

It's about half. The statistics is difficult because of underreporting and sometimes not understanding that it was rape.

http://www.aauw.org/laf/library/assault_stats.cfm

Well, while the 50% figure does seem high, from those stats it's certainly a lot higher than I thought, and would make enough of an argument without distorting the percentages.

So you're condemning someone from stretching the "facts" to make an argument? That's hardly unique to Islam is it?

[cancerinform]

So you're condemning someone from stretching the "facts" to make an argument? That's hardly unique to Islam is it?

Hope you are not talking to me. I am innocent, just googling facts.

[TheOriginalFlashDavo]

Hope you are not talking to me. I am innocent, just googling facts.

No, apologies, didn't make it clear that I was responding to your figures in response to the post before yours.

My bad.

[TallGuyLittleCar]

25% rape sounds about right from the women that I have known.

[TheOriginalFlashDavo]

25% rape sounds about right from the women that I have known.

A damn site more than I thought!! Damn!

[koolbabs2000]

What i dont like about the followers of the faith -
1. Women forced to wear the veil (burqa)
2. A man taking up 4 wives.
3. Triple talaaq

These may have been valid in the olden times,
but most certainly are not valid in today's society.

[ghaniz786]

What i dont like about the followers of the faith -
1. Women forced to wear the veil (burqa)
2. A man taking up 4 wives.
3. Triple talaaq

1. POLYGAMY
Question:
Why is a man allowed to have more than one wife in Islam? i.e. why is
polygamy allowed in Islam?
Answer:
1. Definition of Polygamy
Polygamy means a system of marriage whereby one person has more than one
spouse. Polygamy can be of two types. One is polygyny where a man marries
more than one woman, and the other is polyandry, where a woman marries
more than one man. In Islam, limited polygyny is permitted; whereas polyandry
is completely prohibited.
Now coming to the original question, why is a man allowed to have more than
one wife?
2. The Qur’an is the only religious scripture in the world that says,
“marry only one”.
The Qur’an is the only religious book, on the face of this earth, that contains the
phrase ‘marry only one’. There is no other religious book that instructs men to
have only one wife. In none of the other religious scriptures, whether it be the
Vedas, the Ramayan, the Mahabharat, the Geeta, the Talmud or the Bible does
one find a restriction on the number of wives. According to these scriptures one
can marry as many as one wishes. It was only later, that the Hindu priests and
the Christian Church restricted the number of wives to one.
Many Hindu religious personalities, according to their scriptures, had multiple
wives. King Dashrat, the father of Rama, had more than one wife. Krishna had
several wives.
In earlier times, Christian men were permitted as many wives as they wished,
since the Bible puts no restriction on the number of wives. It was only a few
centuries ago that the Church restricted the number of wives to one.
Polygyny is permitted in Judaism. According to Talmudic law, Abraham had
three wives, and Solomon had hundreds of wives. The practice of polygyny
continued till Rabbi Gershom ben Yehudah (960 C.E to 1030 C.E) issued an
edict against it. The Jewish Sephardic communities living in Muslim countries
continued the practice till as late as 1950, until an Act of the Chief Rabbinate of
Israel extended the ban on marrying more than one wife.
(*Interesting Note:- As per the 1975 census of India Hindus are more
polygynous than Muslims. The report of the ‘Committee of The Status of
Woman in Islam’, published in 1975 mentions on page numbers 66 and 67 that
the percentage of polygamous marriages between the years 1951 and 1961 was 5.06% among the Hindus and only 4.31% among the Muslims. According
to Indian law only Muslim men are permitted to have more than one wife. It is
illegal for any non-Muslim in India to have more than one wife. Despite it being
illegal, Hindus have more multiple wives as compared to Muslims. Earlier, there
was no restriction even on Hindu men with respect to the number of wives
allowed. It was only in 1954, when the Hindu Marriage Act was passed that it
became illegal for a Hindu to have more than one wife. At present it is the Indian
Law that restricts a Hindu man from having more than one wife and not the
Hindu scriptures.)
Let us now analyse why Islam allows a man to have more than one wife.
3. Qur’an permits limited polygyny
As I mentioned earlier, Qur’an is the only religious book on the face of the earth
that says ‘marry only one’. The context of this phrase is the following verse from
Surah Nisa of the Glorious Qur’an:
“Marry women of your choice, two, or three, or four; but if ye fear that
ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one.”
[Al-Qur’an 4:3]
Before the Qur’an was revealed, there was no upper limit for polygyny and
many men had scores of wives, some even hundreds. Islam put an upper limit
of four wives. Islam gives a man permission to marry two, three or four women,
only on the condition that he deals justly with them.
In the same chapter i.e. Surah Nisa verse 129 says:
“Ye are never able to be fair and just as between women....”
[Al-Qur’an 4:129]
Therefore polygyny is not a rule but an exception. Many people are under the
misconception that it is compulsory for a Muslim man to have more than one wife.
Broadly, Islam has five categories of Do’s and Don’ts:
(i) ‘Fard’ i.e. compulsory or obligatory
(ii) ‘Mustahab’ i.e. recommended or encouraged
(iii) ‘Mubah’ i.e. permissible or allowed
(iv) ‘Makruh’ i.e. not recommended or discouraged
(v) ‘Haraam’ i.e. prohibited or forbidden
Polygyny falls in the middle category of things that are permissible. It cannot be
said that a Muslim who has two, three or four wives is a better Muslim as
compared to a Muslim who has only one wife.
4. Average life span of females is more than that of males
By nature males and females are born in approximately the same ratio. A
female child has more immunity than a male child. A female child can fight the
germs and diseases better than the male child. For this reason, during the
pediatric age itself there are more deaths among males as compared to the
females.
During wars, there are more men killed as compared to women. More men die
due to accidents and diseases than women. The average life span of females
is more than that of males, and at any given time one finds more widows in the
world than widowers.
5. India has more male population than female due to female
foeticide and infanticide
India is one of the few countries, along with the other neighbouring countries, in
which the female population is less than the male population. The reason lies in
the high rate of female infanticide in India, and the fact that more than one
million female foetuses are aborted every year in this country, after they are
identified as females. If this evil practice is stopped, then India too will have
more females as compared to males.
6. World female population is more than male population
In the USA, women outnumber men by 7.8 million. New York alone has one
million more females as compared to the number of males, and of the male
population of New York one-third are gays i.e sodomites. The U.S.A as a whole
has more than twenty-five million gays. This means that these people do not
wish to marry women. Great Britain has four million more females as compared
to males. Germany has five million more females as compared to males. Russia
has nine million more females than males. God alone knows how many million
more females there are in the whole world as compared to males.
7. Restricting each and every man to have only one wife is not
practical
Even if every man got married to one woman, there would still be more than
thirty million females in U.S.A who would not be able to get husbands
(considering that America has twenty five million gays). There would be more
than four million females in Great Britain, 5 million females in Germany and nine
million females in Russia alone who would not be able to find a husband.
Suppose my sister happens to be one of the unmarried women living in USA, or
suppose your sister happens to be one of the unmarried women in USA. The
only two options remaining for her are that she either marries a man who
already has a wife or becomes 'public property'. There is no other option. All
those who are modest will opt for the first.
Most women would nto like to share their husband with other women. But in
Islam when the situation deems it really neccessary Muslim women in due faith
could bear a small personal loss to prevent a greater loss of letting other Muslim
sisters becoming 'public properties'.
8. Marring a married man preferable to becoming 'public property'
In Western society, it is common for a man to have mistresses and/or multiple
extra-marital affairs, in which case, the woman leads a disgraceful, unprotected
life. The same society, however, cannot accept a man having more than one
wife, in which women retain their honourable, dignified position in society and
lead a protected life.
Thus the only two options before a woman who cannot find a husband is to
marry a married man or to become 'public property'. Islam prefers giving
women the honourable position by permitting the first option and disallowing the
second.
There are several other reasons, why Islam has permitted limited polygyny, but
it is mainly to protect the modesty of women.

reply contineues.......

[PAlexC]

In Western society, it is common for a man to have mistresses and/or multiple extra-marital affairs...

Stop right there. First off, that's not just men in Western society, that's people everywhere. They make mistakes, have indescretions.

Second, making polygamy acceptable on those grounds is rediculous. That's bending morality to human nature. Yes, no one is perfect. But you can't change the rules to suit your shortcomings. Man-made bends to the law don't make the act itself any better, it's just rationalizing.

[3PRIMATES]

Hello ghaniz, at this juncture the most we can hope for is to agree to disagree.
I cannot give respect to Muhammad, but I will try my best not to be offending.
Seeing as I am not Muslim though, I will continue to speak as I would speak about any religious figure. I refuse to skirt around issues and to use verbiage as if I am walking on egg shells. I believe I understand how you feel about your prophet and you must abide by your religious doctrine, but I am not bound by that way of thinking and actions.

I would hope you would also respect the fact that I am an intelligent person, and that everything that I have referred to in my posts have come directly from the Islamic community, Islamic friends, and theologists.
Thanks for understanding.

3P

[Jujumon]

i would really like to hear from a female muslim's perspective on this subject. Most of the 'holy books' are written by men anyway.

also i would like to ask if you are married to a muslim do you have to convert to a muslim as well? I personally disagree with it, in any religion.

[gerbick]

ok. fine. the original reason for this thread has been done... I know something new about Islam.

Now. why shouldn't I close this lightning rod of a thread/topic?