Gun Control

[MagnusVS]

if you think that health care, ethnic groups (???), etc. may affect crime rates more than gun ownership, what basis to you have in suggesting that the US crime rate has anything to do with guns? by your own observations, it could be that the US really just has a mental health care problem and guns are irregardless.

Yes that could be right. But as you have your personal opinion about this subject, I have mine. I posted the Wikipedia article to show that there are many people researching and finding different results, so I guess we'll have to wait for more researching to be done. (and say "I told you so!" )I'm actually surprised to see how little statistics there are about this subject on the internet.

("ethnic groups": With this, I meant the problems that can occur when different cultures meet.)

[FlashLackey]

I'm actually surprised to see how little statistics there are about this subject on the internet.

I don't know. I seem to be able to find statistics on this all over the place. There are a zillion books on the subject. I could fairly easily provide a decent list of links including statistics on this. I mean, which ones are missing? Could it be that the side of the argument you find yourself on doesn't find the statistics useful?

("ethnic groups": With this, I meant the problems that can occur when different cultures meet.)

I suppose you could consider crimes of racism that involve guns. But, otherwise, I'm not sure what problems you're referring to?

[MagnusVS]

I don't know. I seem to be able to find statistics on this all over the place. There are a zillion books on the subject. I could fairly easily provide a decent list of links including statistics on this. I mean, which ones are missing? Could it be that the side of the argument you find yourself on doesn't find the statistics useful?

I suppose you could consider crimes of racism that involve guns. But, otherwise, I'm not sure what problems you're referring to?

I have only found a few that has measured the degree of correlation between guns and crime, which could be interesting to have a look at. And I think it's hard to find reliable sources (I've read that about 70% of the information on the internet is wrong).

Yes I was referring to crimes of racism but also gang crimes that often are a result of several different cultures being mixed together.

But as I said earlier Joseph, I won't take part in this debate anymore as I have lots of other things to do!

[MagnusVS]

I don't know. All I know is that illegal guns starts as legal guns.

[silverx2]

same can be said for fruit i bring over seas.

[silverx2]

hey magnus explain how this articals towns compared to there guns laws is working

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/ar...TICLE_ID=55288
im having trouble understanding how a town that mandates that every head of house owns and maintains a gun is able to be murder free for 25 years, while a town that ban guns for everyone but police is having a crime rate that is growing. how does that work?

[MagnusVS]

I don't think such "sunshine stories" is representable as an "overall view".

I'm pasting what Wikipedia write about the debate, not to argue for my point of view, but to show that there are researching pointing both ways.
As I've said before, I don't see that any of us are affecting the others point of view, and I will therefore not be active in this debate anymore. I have programming to do, and the lounge takes way to much time But it's been an interesting debate.

Relationships between crime, violence, and gun ownership

There is an open debate regarding the relationship between gun control, and violence and other crimes. The numbers of lives saved or lost by gun ownership is debated by criminologists. Research difficulties include the difficulty of accounting accurately for confrontations in which no shots are fired, and jurisdictional differences in the definition of "crime".

Some writers, such as John Lott, author of More Guns, Less Crime, say they have discovered a positive correlation between gun control legislation and crimes in which criminals victimize law-abiding citizens. Lott asserts that criminals ignore gun control laws and are effectively deterred only by armed intended victims just as higher penalties deter crime. His work involved comparison and analysis from data collected from all the counties in the United States.[29] Lott's study has been criticized for not adequately controlling for other factors, including other state laws also enacted, such as Florida's laws requiring background checks and waiting period for handgun buyers.[30] with similar findings by Jens Ludwig.[31] Since concealed-carry permits are only given to adults, Philip J. Cook suggests that analysis should focus on the relationship with adult and not juvenile gun incident rates.[32] He finds a small, positive effect of concealed-carry laws on adult homicide rates, but states the effect is not statistically significant.[32] The National Academy of Science has found no evidence that shows right-to-carry laws have an impact, either way, on rates of violent crime.[33] NAS suggests that new analytical approaches and datasets at the county or local level are needed to evaluate adequately the impact of right-to-carry laws.[34]

Another researcher, Dr. Gary Kleck, a criminologist at Florida State University, estimated that approximately 2.5 million people used their gun in self-defense or to prevent crime each year, often by merely displaying a weapon. The incidents that Kleck studied generally did not involve the firing of the gun and he estimates that as many as 1.9 million of those instances involved a handgun.[35] Kleck's research has been challenged by scholars such as David Hemenway who argue that these estimates of crimes prevented by gun ownership are too high.

The National Rifle Association regularly reprints locally-published stories of ordinary citizens whose lives were saved by their guns.

A study supported by the National Rifle Association found that homicide rates as a whole, especially homicides as a result of firearms use, are not always significantly lower in many other developed countries. This is apparent in the UK and Japan, which have very strict gun control, while Israel, Canada, and Switzerland at the same time have low homicide rates and high rates of gun distribution. Although Dr Kleck has stated, "...cross-national comparisons do not provide a sound basis for assessing the impact of gun ownership levels on crime rates." [36]

In a New England Journal of Medicine article Kellermann, et. al. found that people who keep a gun at home increase their risk of homicide.[37] Florida State University professor Gary Kleck disagrees with the journal authors' interpretation of the evidence and he argues that there is no evidence that the guns involved in the home homicides studied by Kellermann, et. al. were kept in the victim's home.[35] Similarly, Dave Kopel, writing in the National Review criticized Kellermann's study.[38] Kellermann responded to similar criticisms of the data behind his study in a letter to the New England Journal of Medicine[39] Finally, another argument cited by academics researching gun violence points to the positive correlation between guns in the home and an already violent neighborhood. These points assert that Professor Kleck's causal story is in fact backwards and that violent neighborhoods cause homeowners to purchase guns and it is the neighborhood that determines the probability of homicide, not the presence of a gun.

In his book Private Guns, Public Health, David Hemenway makes the argument in favor of gun control and he provides evidence for the more guns, more gun violence and suicide hypothesis. Rather than compare America to countries with radically different cultures and historical experiences, he focuses on Canada, New Zealand and Australia and concludes that the case for gun control is a strong one based on the relationship he finds between lower crime rates and gun control.[40] Other information from countries such as South Africa, Russia, and several other countries which forbid almost all individual firearms and have low rates of gun ownership, have much higher murder rates than the US, usually committed with simple knives, explosives, or improvised blunt-force weapons.[41]

Firearms are also the most common method of suicide, accounting for 53.7% of all suicides committed in the United States in 2003[42] Japan's suicide rate is much higher, despite the strict gun control there.[43]

[david petley]

Cowboys had guns. America had cowboys. It's part of the heritage.

dp

[lesli_felix]

You also "had" civil war, slavery, compulsory draft and alcohol prohibition.

Past tense being fortunate in all cases.

[david petley]

You also "had" civil war, slavery, compulsory draft and alcohol prohibition.

Past tense being fortunate in all cases.

I presume the 'You' in your post relates to Americans, rather than me personally (not being an American).

The US had slavery, sure....the British/French/Spanish/Dutch had a lucrative business going shipping and selling slaves to America and other locations.

Slavery was and is an international issue with many culpable players, not just the end users.

...and many countries still have compulsory military service for all citizens, so it is a little fairer than any lottery system randomly picking punters, for sure, but other than that, no different.

david

[TallGuyLittleCar]

I presume the 'You' in your post relates to Americans, rather than me personally (not being an American).

hold on now.. evp has issued a declaration that a posters image be in their avatar.. and i see a cowboy in your avatar.. so you must be american.

[david petley]

hold on now.. evp has issued a declaration that a posters image be in their avatar.. and i see a cowboy in your avatar.. so you must be american.

LOL, screw that...it's an 'avatar'

Avatars on Internet forums serve the purpose of representing users and their actions, personalizing their contributions to the forum, and may represent different parts of their persona, beliefs, interests or social status in the forum.

...so it is just a representation of different parts of my persona, beliefs, interests or social status.

david

[lesli_felix]

LOL, screw that...it's an 'avatar'

Lol, fooled me as well.

But then I'm not dangermouse, so perhaps I should have known....

My point was that heritage isn't great justification for anything, that is all.

[david petley]

It just seems like overkill to me to allow anyone apart from police or military access to automatic or semi-automatic weapons.

Hunters don't need them (they should practice being better shots), and I cannot see why the common man would need them...it seems like a case of 'bigger badder guns = bigger dick' in some peoples minds.

david

[TallGuyLittleCar]

.it seems like a case of 'bigger badder guns = bigger dick' in some peoples minds.

I think that is the case quite often.

But if the police need a semi-automatic to fight crime, and you argue 2nd amendment for self protection.. won't the citizens need semi-automatics as well since they are more often on the front line of fighting crime.

[david petley]

I think that is the case quite often.

But if the police need a semi-automatic to fight crime, and you argue 2nd amendment for self protection.. won't the citizens need semi-automatics as well since they are more often on the front line of fighting crime.

I think the mistake in thinking here is that the citizens, as individuals, are not more often on the front line fighting crime. The police do it daily as their line of work, how often is any one average joe citizen likely to come across crime and criminals?

And leading on from that, how much training in recognising crime, and choosing the appropriate response, does joe citizen have compared to police?

Does joe citizen also carry mace, or taser, or nightstick and handcuffs so that there are alternatives in what response to crime they can make?

david

[TallGuyLittleCar]

I think the mistake in thinking here is that the citizens, as individuals, are not more often on the front line fighting crime. The police do it daily as their line of work, how often is any one average joe citizen likely to come across crime and criminals?

i really can't speak to the criminals in australia, but in the u.s. most criminals pray on citizens.. it is quite rare that a criminal will try to rob, rape, mug, or murder a police officer on duty.

[david petley]

i really can't speak to the criminals in australia, but in the u.s. most criminals pray on citizens.. it is quite rare that a criminal will try to rob, rape, mug, or murder a police officer on duty.

How many citizens, as a proportion of the total population, do you think would be actually have been exposed to physically aggressive and life threatening crime (that would actually need them to resort to the use of a gun to protect their own lives, rather than just their property, which is replaceable)?

david

[lesli_felix]

You forgot the <sarcasm> tag, I do it it all the time....

[Visionray]

speaking of cowboys, David I just realized you have had that avatar and your title for the past 6 years I think haha - that's pretty cool. I always wondered though, what does the quote come from re: Montana and who is that guy?