My own private rant about code, and FKters...

[luxregina]

Heya !


It seems that Flashkit isn't holding up to its former promises anymore for me.
I tried during my time here to put as much dedication as I could in the amateur projects I could get involved into.

It's been a big let down lately - for many reasons, not nessecerly project/code related, but even if I stay only on the code topic, this isn't only lately actually, that's pretty much a whole succession of big letdowns

On all the amateur projects that I've been collaborating through, the only one that went well by my standard, was the one with Strille : we finished it, without cutting too much of the original features, in a relatively timely fashion, and, most importantly, without having the coder drop right in the middle of it ( and I would be responsible for the "relatively" here : I have a full time job, an interesting job that I focus a lot on, that doesn't always allow me to have the peace of mind to handle extra work on the week-nights, or even the week ends - eventhough I've always tried to garantee a constant flow of graphic data, for whom I was working with - keyword here is commitment, not nessecerly swiftness )


Lately, I've been struggling a great deal with 2KH - I tried to do as much as I could, graphic wise ( but that's my job ) but also code-wise, for the engine, to try to attract some collaborative minds on the project - it was a total failure : each coder wouldn't accept to work on existing bases, and , as motivated and imaginative they would be at first, all of them would drop, not even half the job done on their "brand new engine".

sure, i'm aware i'm not offering any straight money ( eventhough, for 2KH, there was / is quite an opportunity to make it beyond Flash - I'll come back on that later ) but FK was still supposed to be an amateur-friendly environment last time I checked ?

So, my message is aimed at those who want to code games, later-on, on an amateur level to start, in their Flash existence : making cool engines is awesome, but turning those engines into full blown games is the key, at least, as far as i'm concerned, on a games forum

Don't focus on how cool is it to be breaking through new boundaries with a new engine, be aware that coding a full game means tedious work as well - and be aware that making the graphics for that same game can be as tedious for the graphic guy, the same way it is for you to code an inventory ... and, most importantly, be aware that people with a project that is about to see light ( whether in Flash or another medium ) will want to see completed stuff, and not only engines, to be able to decide who's most likely to not ruin the whole thing.

I realize that my message sounds "borderline", but I can promise you that it really hurts me to realize, while I have some publishers interested into prototyping my game, and pay some money from it ( up to 7K, for a prototype, you keep full rights on, aside graphics and gameplay elements) :

a - there are the ones that have no time for it ( good for them, that means that they are busy, I won't blame them ) - or, that's another variation, that are much more expensive to build a Flash prototype than a full studio producing a Nintendo DS prototype ( same thing here, if clients abide by this rate, then why bother ? )

b - there are the ones that im not sure are reliable enough to take that charge through and come up with what's needed and paied for - in a timely fashion for the client - and i'm not nessecerly ready to hand the project to people that aren't experienced enough leading code the whole project through ...



yeah, 7K/8K might be low, but why would anyone go with a flash guy, if prototyping directly on NDS is cheaper or the same price ? ( and you get to re-use the "good code" for the full blown engine if the game is signed )

I then realize that there is no real place here to try to start something that could lead to anything serious, either Flash-wise, or beyond ...

Why's that ? because the coders that are "capable" ( is that english ? ) are too busy to work on their own thing, and, that the ones that could potentially be capable ( again ? ) but haven't revealed yet, have only engines to show and not full games, hence are not trustworthy for a full blown project...

So that's my message, not for myself, I have no hope to find what i'm looking for on FK anymore, but for those that want to be "game coders" : engines are cool, they are usually ground-breaking - but don't forget to have some AAA finished exemples in your portfolio if you want to have some "weight" selling yourself as game-coders...

Don't forget also that you have some fellow "artists" that are on this board, that could, with you, get to that AAA title that would be welcomed for both portfolios, but that it requires some more commitment that goes further than "having a shot at the latest technology offered by F8" ...

I'm aware my post might be poorly received here, but that's what I've been thinking for quite a while now, and that I stand true to it : I joined FK in a time when everything was possible, and boiling with opportunities - I might have missed a wagon there, and that might be my fault, but I truely think that this time is gone ...at least for now ...

Regards,

Lux

[MikeMD]

hey, the guy who said: " if you want it done right ( or at all ) , do it yourself " wasn't crazy.

Sometimes, that's the way it has to be. As you noted, world is full of coders and experimental engines , but a complete game is an entirely different thing.

The very best racing game ( to many people even to this day ) in the 1990s was done by one guy, and it took him 6 years. Hopefully, it won't take you that long.

[luxregina]

i'll be doing it myself, as I've been doing it for the last months ...I just think it's sad to not be able to find a reliable partner to ease the work, even with money involved, on a forum where lots of "amateurs" members (like me) pretend to make a living of their coding abilities (unlike me) ...

this is not about me losing faith in my project - this is about me losing faith in FK as a board where I can meet like-minded people to finish something, even if it's not "ground-breaking" - for once, i'm giving the artist perspective here ...

[EvilKris]

Seems like you've run face-first into the brick wall of stubborn human nature ,bud. It's nothing to do with FlashKit members.

Yes, people are lazy animals.

Even if you knock on their door and present them with a silver-lined plan to make money, they still won't do it. Sooner you realise that, the better you'll feel about finishing the project on your own - even if it takes years - and laughing at them from your pedestal.

2KH is going to make you a fortune. Don't give up.

[691175002]

You may have gone too far to restart, but upon reflection, here are my suggestions:

Depending on how object oriented your game is, it could be possible to break it into sections (such as inventory, stats, skills) that can each be represented by their own class, and you can simply write an interface between the two sections.

If you have done research on design patterns:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Design_...ter_science%29

Patterns I would suggest are:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adapter_pattern - To combine individual parts.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fa%C3%A7ade_pattern - Combines several parts into one, synergizes with the Adapter
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Model-view-controller - To separate the interface and the logic.

Assuming that the sections are coded properly (encapsulation and loosely coupled), it should be comparatively easy to combine many programmers work, as well as the fact that you are not dependent on a programmer to finish the job.

In essence, what I am recommending is that you split up your game into as many sections as possible, perhaps make a UML diagram:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unified_Modeling_Language

And have each person fill in a square, while you (or someone else) puts together the Adapters and Facades.

In the universal pong comparison, Say I divide it into three parts:

Game:
Keep track of score
keep track of paddle locations (which are affected by two functions: p1Move (amount) p2Move (amount).
Output two overridable functions/events (player1Win, player2Win);

Ball: 
Takes the paddle positions as an input.
Do the physics.
Output when the ball scores as two events/functions

Player:
Outputs the amount a player moves a frame.

(Via Model-View-Controller, have a fourth class take paddle and ball positions as well as score and draw it)

As you can see, putting together these four parts is much easier than the whole, and pulling a single part from a programmer is much easier than a whole. Four or more (for Adapters/Facades) separate programmers could work on it and not need to touch each other with a 40 foot pole. Finding programmers competent with OOP may be problematic, but thats for you to decide.
In a situation like this, you could easily split your game into 30 or more well separated "programs", and as a coder, I can say the intellectual challenge of solving a specific and concise problem is more interesting than an entire game (hence the proliferation of engines, not games)

I can tell you that I would hesitate to guarantee anything for a project of that size, but I would be (and am) completely open to writing a small piece, or combining two pieces in a facade for you/another person to combine with a third piece and an adapter, or even just recommending how to split it up.

Guestimates put planning the UML out as a few nights of sleeping on it and then an hour or two drawing it up, and a few days of coding for each section. OOP is very popular for a reason.

As another side effect of oop, if you hold to this method, you will have tens of thousands of lines of completely reusable code, that could be put together like Lego for hundreds of different games, that is, after all, what they were designed to do.

OOP brings its own set of challenges, but I believe there is a strong case for it here. You will be trading off performance (how much is debatable), but your code will be reusable, well designed, and above all, manageable.

Depending on how comfortable you are with OOP, I would suggest checking out a library. OOP requires a different mindset, and the divisions between sections of a program are not always clear. Im sure everyone would find a different way to divide pong, and every one would work (some better than others)

I will finish off with a small warning, while I may have portrayed this as a miracle worker, OOP has its pitfalls, and poor design can make combining different sections a nightmare. The person who does the planning needs a strong grasp of OOP, and each piece must be made to specification and throughly tested. Debugging OOP is easier as you can generally track down the problem to a single section (and even just discard that section and find a new guy...), but thats not to say its easy. Having each section completely independent and separate is crucial. Interdependance = difficulty combining sections, bugs, reliance on a single coder, and lack of reusability (all arguably characteristics of your current approach).
(And of course how you split the money, who owns the code etc...)

Whew... That was a long post. I could go on about OOP for days... I believe I removed most of the grammatical and logical errors, but I'm not sure how clear that was...

[tonypa]

The short timeframe between new Flash versions could be one reason we dont see any large games finished. If it takes over a year to finish the game, by the time you are close to get it finally done, new Flash version pops out with new possibilities and features that were not even thinkable earlier. Of course you can still finish the project using old version, but if new version has better perfomance and features that clearly improve the game, it wont be received well. Every new version means you pretty much have to start over with entire game and reusing old code becomes trouble, not to mention you first need to learn the tricks to make something with new version.

[tomsamson]

to Lux:
hello mate, i´m sorry to hear 2kh is not progressing as you´d like it to and i perfectly understand your worries.
I experienced it several times before that people interested initially dropped out in the middle of a project and yup,it happened the other way round that i didn´t have time for a spare time project for a good while in between,too even though i´d have liked to work on it a lot.
I think your assumption that people who work longer (and especially those working fulltime) in game dev are probably those from whom one could expect best work manner (and most experience which relates to the timespan in which they could deliver nice things in theory of course) but those are also the ones who have most work to worry about and therefore least spare time (which may actually let things take longer than if someone skilled would do it who has more spare time).
The project type you´re tackling (rpg) surely makes it even trickier as it requires dedication for a longer timespan than the average "small" casual game.
Overall, yeah, its tricky, you can experience letdowns in between.
Is it totally unfeasable to get a good reliable team together?
I don´t think so
I think fk still has way more community vibe going than many other developer places i know and in between, when a bunch of fitting people has time you can still get a very nice group project going.
Till that´s the case,yup,you best stick to your project and bring it forward as much as you can on your own (which in return will probably again make more people curious to join in).

[ImprisonedPride]

Sounds just like me... After reading this, I counted up all the potential "original" ideas that I have 1/2 made just sitting in a folder on my pc... 27. That's 27 potential games that I lost the motivation to complete, and then I release a game like Sky Diver in a weekend. It's kind of sad, but I know exactly how you feel lux. It's human nature.

sorry I ruined your music player

[hooligan2001]

I hear you brother. Feels like the forum is missing what it had years back. But what I think it is, people have realised that these fully blown games are hard work. I've sure seen it. Been working on LOD for ages now. And know we are seeing a lot of smaller puzzle type games being released. Ones that can be created in a few days by one person. Its just the way its going. I think what tomsamson and his buddy's did by creating a development team was a smart idea. But if you went down that route, you would all need a common vision and that wouldn't be necessarily be 2KH since its 100% your idea.

It was a very good read and I agree with plenty of it.

[Squize]

Excellent post mate.

As I hope you know, I'd work with you in an instant, I've been a fan of your work for as long as I've known you.
Unfortunately I fall into the category of not having any time to do anything aside from my own job. Barbarian was a good case in point. I would have loved to have worked on that, but I knew even back then that I'd not have enough time to commit to it to make it as good as it could be, and there is just no point putting your hand up to do a project only to leave it half finished
( The same thing happened with UXB Kid, Blink did some stunning art for it, which I approached him for, and I've just not got the time to go back to it ( Which I feel really crappy about )).

But yeah the board has changed a lot. A lot of people who started around the same time who have stuck with Flash now making a living from it. Personal projects are a luxury that few of us have time for ( I think my last one was 2 years ago ? Maybe 3 ) and even then a personal project is no longer a cv filler, it's to make money.

So the board is in a weird ( And very long lasting ) transitional period, where the older hands won't get out of bed for less than £10k ( Ok, not that bad ) and the up and coming guys are still finding their feet.
For us older farts we had it easier, it was Flash 5 that we cut our teeth on, and then moved on to 6 etc. The guys learning now have been hit with as2, bitmap data, as3 all in a couple of years, and without the same amount of support we all had ( More tutorials yes, but less of the same people pushing the same thing. We could all get together to make a fast gAS engine, but now do you do it in as1/2/3, use bitmap data, create it in Flex or CS3 etc. )

Basically, we didn't have as much to learn, so we learnt it quicker and moved on up to get nice jobs. The current guys, who have so much potential, have a much steeper hill to climb and so are picking something they want to learn and making smaller games out of it ( Which to be honest is the route I took ), rather than trying to do something much larger.

Squize.

[nGFX]

Shish! yep. Lux I know what you mean/feel (although, it was me doing the code and someone else doing the gfx)

everything has been said.

nGFX

[renderhjs]

perhaps the rant was somewhat aimed at me as well?,- but in my case it really is the time problem. I´m pushing every day till deep into the night to finish my university projects- and there are many people knocking on my door offering me a job or a task but I cancel or have to ignore most of them simply because some things right now have a higher priority.
(btw. I was not in anyway a coder in his projects,- it was rather an idea to do some of the conept art).
With the rant and some of the posts here I sometimes wonder if some people here only do flash (-game) stuff - at least I do not

[tomsamson]

overall nice and honest posts mates,
Squize, disagree a bit with what you said regarding that we old farts had it easier than the newcomers now
I think everyone taking part in the evolution of flash has to learn the new stuff sooner or later
and its generally actually easier for people to learn new stuff if they have lots of free time and are maybe in pupil age anyway than the old farts who work all day and try to squeeze in learning the new stuff on the evenings or weekends to not fall behind.
I also feel like the later generations will always have way more learning material available than the old farts had when they started out earlier and also,very important,even if it may sound easier to start out with as1 when you learn coding than starting out with as2 or 3,essentially its wasted time especially if you learnt flash 4 as1 first.
Sure you could use it but essentially its useless nowadays besides adding to your general knowledge.
Sure,if you´d go for a computer sciences degree and would have to learn all the cruddy old stuff plus all the new stuff, the more new stuff gets added the more you have to catch up in total (i´ve gone through that,annoying ), but when its about getting into AS in your free time essentially you´d be fine with just learning the latest version and ignoring the old versions.
Even if i painted the picture the total opposite way round than you Squize, i actually don´t see it that black/white, i think both can have advantages/disadvantages,just listed those now to convey the thought
One thing i see is that there seem to be way more selling avenues for flash content these days and therefore way more beginners who start right away with shopping around their first game dev attempts, whereas in the earlier days there were less such licensing portals and people seemed way more into
getting in contact with other developers,getting something going together and also extending their portfolios than doing a quick first game which they licence around then.

[Squize]

Don't get me wrong, we as old farts ( Literally in my case ) have to evolve along with everyone else. We can't stand still and be smug that we're so hot at what we do that it doesn't matter what new tech comes out.

And to some extent it's tricky because our ways of coding have become habit after doing lots and lots of games. You get a method for approaching something, and you know you can use that forever more and get the job done.
Change is difficult, I know it took me months to warm to as2 even though my as1 was pretty well structured, and as3 is just twisting my melons ( Another error, cool... ) but I'd rather have the knowledge I've already acquired and be learning as3 than doing it from scratch.

I kinda had this chat briefly with webgeek in another thread, the whole "Well if you're new you should just learn as3" thing. I totally disagree with that ( At present ).
If you're new to coding you should be learning about conditionals, loops, arrays, the basic core structures, not having to jump through hoops to import a class just so you can put a movieclip on stage.

But that's what a lot of younger coders are having to face without the chance to build up all that other knowledge. It's not really happening yet, but it will soon, that you'll be able to tell an as3 game straight away because it will handle so much more than game coded in previous versions of as. There will be a gulf between quality, and therefore expectations, which everyone will have to meet. The newer guys will have to learn so much more in a shorter time frame than we had to do it just to "keep up" ( Sorry, that sounds a bit wanky and elitist, but I can't think of a better way to phrase it ).

It will get easier as more and more learning material does come out, but even so it's a lot to get your head around. I know I mentioned it before, but stuff like bitmap handling has such a vast scope to it, esp. if you've never touched anything like that before. All the old Amiga / ST tricks are open to us now, but how many people who are learning and under a certain age are aware of them ? Who is going to want to go hunting around old scene sites to learn how to do a plasma effect, or what shadebobs are ?

Going back to as3, and learning material, I had to look to see how to make a preloader the other day. I had to google for ages and I'm still less than happy with the approach I've found and adopted. AS3 has been available for how long ? Making a preloader should be a fundamental aspect of Flash, there's nothing to it, although yet in as3 I'm having to make a factory class to force another frame into my swf in what feels like a dog poo workaround.

I think your point about more avenues to sell a game now is one of the most valid in relation to the thread. So many people are coming here and on their first post it's clear they want to make a game 'cause they know there's a good chance they'll actually make money from it.
Tom, you know when we started we didn't have that outlet. Selling a game to miniclip was considered a big deal, it was like a rite of passage.
Now we're in a position where people are just knocking the games out as quickly as they can just to earn that $50/$100 rather than taking on a big project where there's no obvious end in site.

Squize.

[luxregina]

hey - lots of interesting things here ...
few things I ought to clarify:

- Even though I used 2KH as an exemple, of course, what I was talking about is way more generic than my specific case.
I've red here and there that one thing that would boost the Flash game market would be to see more AAA, full length, high production value, games ( I even think Squize said so in an interview I red recently - can't remember where ...)

Well, here is where things are going wrong : of course, there is no real market for full lenght games yet ( aside Dofus, and few others ) so pro-devloppers aren't tasked to devlopp those ( except very few exceptions - Death in Sakara being one (sp?))
I beleive, as amateurs ( I am a design / Flash pro, but an amateur in game-making ) we could actually be the ones that are pushing that side, and create *****ious games, that people that make this for a living cannot afford : here, we are the ones that can easily take those risks, mostly because we can spread the workload over time...

Now, what created the need to vent this on the boards :
- I could have had potentially some money to inject, but I realize that it's either not enough for the pros, and that no amateur is standing out as someone that could assume the job on a reliable fashion - and I really think that it's a shame.
With the handeheld game market trend being currently the retro-gaming revival ( FF early versions / Ghouls'n'Ghosts on PSP / Metal Slug, etc ...) there is a huge opportunity for us, amateurs, to get a foot in the doorway - but not really anybody stepping up to it.

- When I see the almost weekly "nice" engines that pop in every thread, I can't help thinking of the waste of workforce - there again, yay, engines are cool, but if there is nothing behind them to turn them into a game, then it's going to be a cool thing just sitting there. To take a "live" exemple, I'd rather see FallX work on his RPG that was shaping up nicely, instead of seeing him come up with that (relatively) new 3D isometric engine that nobody, or very few, is going to use to turn into a game ... ( please, don't take it personnal FallX - that was really the first exemple that came to my mind, and I really like the engine, respect your work etc... I've said so in your thread )

Lots of people here keep re-inventing the wheel, but very few are concerned about building a car - and even less want to make it a "as nice as possible" car.


For the personnal answers :

- 691175002 : I'm already sold on OOP, the thing is that I don't code an OOP fashion, that, since i'm a "graphic" guy, I went on the simple and accessible side, because that's the only thing I can do in a timely fashion. Maybe one day, I'll sit down seriously and learn it, but quite francly, I was under the illusion that I could do what I was good at, and create a mouvment where other people would find their place to complement that work

- IP : drop the music player thingy, that's really no big deal

- Tom, Squize, etc : what I was trying to insist on isn't nessecerly the lack of knowledge / learning etc - it's the lack of consitency in being a game coder; it's the type of "short attention span" that if something start to being "not fun" - "not ground-breaking" - tedious etc, then one drop it, and doesn't persevere. Obviously, I'm not talking about you pros - who are tied to finish a project by legal / financial issues

- Render : no, the post wasn't directed at you at all - having you help on the art side would have been nice, but wasn't "crucial" to the project - that was icing on the cake, and it's something I can do by myself, just take a little more time, and time isn't / wasn't my problem here. What hurts me the most is to have also to take care of the code-side of things
Though, in one sense, we had a glimpse of the very discussion we are having on this thread on the old FallX new-engine thread the other week

So the final wake-up call i'm making is "Hey, coder-dude, you are talented and creative, and that's great, but don't forget that a major asset to work in a team is the ability to stick through less fun things, where creativity isn't needed, but where seriousness and dedication really shine"

As far as my project is concerned, it's continuing, it will be released, whatever format, at best it will be a game, at worst a showcase of my ideas of what a game could be, but my point is that I've given up on FK game board to find like-minded people, with complementary knowledge, to take over roles with that... so yeah, as the first answer was stating "if you want it done right ( or at all ) , do it yourself " - but that makes me sad...

[luxregina]

seems that a.m.b.i.t.i.o.u.s is filtered ... see, even FK forum engine considers that word "dirty"

[EvilKris]

someone burned lux and he's piiiiiissed.....

[Ray Beez]

Lux, I didn't really read all the replies, but regarding the gist of your post: The greatest percentage of top Flash coders AREN'T ON FLASHKIT. In fact they aren't really on any boards, because they're busy working. Not everyone is into forums. (In fact it's something I'm struggling with cutting down, as it can be a big waste of precious time, posting for the sake of posting).

So what I'm saying is, "what did you expect?". If you want to align yourself with people that are more than hobbyists, you probably have to find them elsewhere. And this is not saying that there are no pros here, on the contrary, but realistically, for every 1 pro here like Squize, there are probably 1000 others out there that don't bother visiting here. You just have to figure out how and where to find them.

(*I apologize if I'm just repeating something someone else already said above)

[AzraelKans]

luxregina. I hope Im not stepping in someone's feet here, but heres the deal. If you want to make a casual game doing it online with someone helping you overseas is ussually no problem. BUT if you are working on a serious long time project and you expect to do it fully online, IMHO it's time to change plans.

Only 1 or 2 out of hundreds of large online projects are succesfully finished (I wish I was making that number up) developing a large game is NOT a easy task, but by doing it online your success rate just went down to 1% BTW this is NOT a exclusive problem to flash or flashkit.

Why is this ? simple, people who work over line have other jobs!, is practically _impossible_ to find someone dedicated 100% to work online (I mean seriously who would let their entire salary depend upon their net connection and some guy he/she has never meet?), they do it as a part time job, while doing some other projects, jobs of their own, school etc.

They are not dedicated 100% and that means that if they need it (serious job offer, student interchange), they could leave, even without notice. Why? because they can, you CANT easily track someone you meet online (specially from another country) no matter how much you try!

If you want to build a LARGE project, rent an office, call the people on the phone, put them on the payroll, hire locals (you will be surprised but ussually you will find some talented locals if you scavenge enough) and if you have the means, be willing to fly key people over if needed. If you need some funding, consider building some small more commercial projects first, get publishers, advertisers, etc.

The rule of thumb is simple: In large projects DO NOT hire someone you havent meet face to face, and that you know is not going to be 100% dedicated (because is a LARGE project and it will necessarily take lots of time and effort) and make sure his/her paychecks come directly from you.

Take this from someone who has been engaged in several (failed) web projects and finally payed dirt with a small but significant local operation.

Like I said, sorry if I hurt someone feelings (or plans), but Im talking out of experience, If your experience is any different feeel free to share.

Good luck with your project, I hope my advice is helpful.

peace!

[luxregina]

I agree with you : 2KH is a huge project ...as 2K was a huge project in its time, or as Sylvaniah as quite big as well - and they both got completed, nethertheless, over the web ... and by people that, like me, were doing that as a hobby. and that is precisely what i'm trying to point out there : the lack of personns commited to do something that isn't going to be the next Flash revolution in terms of technique, but that could very well be something quite impressive in terms of content, or long-lasting passion.

(...)Obviously, I'm not talking about you pros - who are tied to finish a project by legal / financial issues(...)

Not talking about pros here : I respect them, love them, but, at least not until recently, wasn't playing in the same backyard as them, and never wanted : already have a job I love, so my coming on FK, 5 years ago, was to find people that, like me, want to do video games ...some as a job, some as a hobby - and what I was saying about hobbiists, is that they should feel concerned to showcase "commitment and endurance" as much as they are showcasing "coding talent" ...in a nutshell