[Disc] Any market for technically complicated games?

[WesIsGood]

I've spent a considerable amount of time recently programming a madness-esque flash game. I still have a lot more to do. From a financial standpoint, is it worth it? If I make a very good, technically complicated game, will the popularity be proportional, or is it a better use of time to make 20 stupid games in the same timeframe? There are a lot of very popular stupid games.

Is it normal for a person to make very involved and well programmed game, and then have it get absolutely no publicity? I assume there are tons of people making flash games out there, and I dont see that many really good ones, so either people aren't making them, or the ones that are getting made aren't getting as much popularity as they should. Which is the case?

[Schfifty Five]

You're right, there ARE a lot of very popular stupid games

I think it really depends on how good your game is; if it's fun and addictive, and replayable, then it's probably worth it. If you enjoy making it anyway, it should be worth it just for that anyway (but money is nice too)

If you could've made 20 stupid games instead, then yeah it's possible you would've made more that way, but even though there's lots of very popular stupid games, there's even more unpopular stupid games.

[ColbyCheeze]

The popularity of a game can be somewhat mysterious at times. I've spent many hours pondering this question, and looking at which games become popular...and at games that do not.

Really what you think is a "stupid" game is actually pretty fun for a lot of people, while a technically advanced game might actually be pretty stupid for gamers.

I am sure I as well as others could go on and on about this topic, but I suppose as a quick response I'd say just make the game as simple and easy to play as possible, regardless of how technically advanced it is.

Ask yourself (and more importantly others) the question: Is it fun? Would others want to play this? What can I do to make it friendlier to everyone. Give it the grandma test. If your grandma can play it, then you might be on to something.

That's my 2 cents. :P

[Flashkit]

personally I think 'little' games are better as you can usually find an audience of players and also people wanting to reskin and buy. Everytime I make a big game for the challenge fun etc etc I never make the same financial rewards as some of the littler games Ive made. As such I still make em, but don't think about where they will take me too much. I focus on advergaming style games for the income stream....

[hatu]

Just the quality of programming doesn't really tell much. Why would anyone care how complicated the game was to program? As long as it isn't bug ridden the end user doesn't really care about that at all.

If we're talking on a broader spectrum then I think that it definitely is worth the trouble to make the game look and feel professional.
Like 55 said there are a handful of seemingly simple and silly games that become huge but for every one of those there are thousands and thousands of terrible games that never get past the few hundred views.
You'll atleast have something to stand out a bit from the flock when you aren't just using vector circles and squares for everything.

The most important thing is that it has something new and is fun to play. Everything else is just a nice bonus.

[lesli_felix]

Put it on the back-burner, do a couple of smaller games first, then see how you feel. You're probably writing lots of code you can re-use in a smaller project.

[691175002]

No one is going to buy a crappy game just because its complicated. People will buy good games, and whether the complexity contributes to how much fun your game is cannot be predicted.

[Gamebrew]

I don't think complicated games do so well, but it always depends. So far my RTS didn't do as well as my other games even tho it got mostly good reviews. But I could have always made it better or easier.

One super simple game that I think did well was "King of Buttons" :P

[tonypa]

I guess it depends if "technically complicated" translates into "complicated to play" or not. In general, people who play Flash games dont like too complicated games simply because there is 100 other new games released every day and if they dont understand how to play within first couple minutes they pick next game. Programming goodness itself does little impact on the final game as long game is bug-free and has no perfomance issues. Good graphics for example help game to be more successful, or if you are one of those non-artistic guys, at least simplify the graphics so they become matter of style (see N game).

Overall, no I dont think making very complicated and perfectly programmed Flash game is worth it from financial standpoint. There is not much more money to be earned from large game developed for 2 years then smaller game you made within 2 weeks.

[tomsamson]

it depends on what you rate as complicated game.
Overall if you see "complicated game" as game with some depth in gameplay, levels etc then yes, there´s probably an audience for it.
If you define "complicated" as purely a technical achievement, like let´s say "pOwned! made a game super nice coded in oop manner in AS3 and it uses kick ass 3D for papervision standards!!!" then yeah,usually only advertising clients and flash hyping sites like thefwa and total flash enthusiasts care about this, to most actual gamers it couldn´t be less important.
For example doing "kickass" stuff in pv3d today can easily mean the gamer requires a high end cpu and lots of ram to play the game and then for the unifoirmed it looks like a pc game of more than 10 years ago, so that´s not very appealing.
Basically on the tech side you have to watch out to make something that looks and feels cool, not that´s only cool if you´re a tech geek who knows what all it took to make it run at all.

There are several ways to earn money with flash games, like running your own portal/community and hosting it there then making money with subscriptions or advertising or licensing the game to other portals or selling it as download game or reskinning it for a client as advergame etc etc. So if your game is any enjoyable to people you can probably make money with it in one way or the other.
Thing is different release methods usually mean you have to do a fitting game for that release method. For example when you do an advergame for a client it usually means you´re way more restricted regardigng the actual game content, it has to fit their brand and usually most clients don´t like very brutal games and some other things in games.
When you go the way of licensing your game to many portals (for a slow fee each) then your game should be one that appeals to the broadest mass, in that case you can´t make a very niche game that´s only interesting to a particular small group.
You could of course think the same if you run your own community/portal side but then its a bit different, as you can stick to the game while a community around builds up you can probably do something that is a bit more nice or out of the usual in creative way. Like for example i´m pretty convinced that the game N would never have gotten so popular if metanet released it on some random portal instead of releasing it themselves and taking care of the community side so long.

[WesIsGood]

Thanks for all the responses. I definitely wasn't expecting so much feedback so quickly. I think mostly the responses confirm what I suspected in the first place. Which is unfortunate for me, because it means that to be successful, I'll probably have to focus more on the aspect of game design which don't interest me as much. But, it's certainly still better than a real job either way.

To be honest, though, I doubt this will change much about the games I design, because though it would be nice to make some money, I do it more out of obsession than out of financial need anyways. I get so wrapped up in these projects, I can't pull myself away from them. Until I'm about 70% done, at which point I get obsessed with something else. Ah well. I figure there are two different learning curves in this type of business, the first is learning the software, and the second is learning about the demographics and marketing considerations. I'm good at one, but haven't progressed so much at the other.

[Sietjp]

If the goal is to make money, 20 stupid games is the best strategy IMO.

A big effort on one game can work very well if your game will be the next "Line rider", "Flash element TD", "Headbox zombie wars"...
This can attract a lot of traffic FOR A LONG TIME on your site.

But 20 stupid game a month will attract also a lot of traffic, and this is less risky.

So you're right, that's certainly why we see alot of bad quick games around.

[Taels]

While we're talking about money, how much money is there in making Flash games? Enough to quit the day job?

One article said the creators of Desktop Tower Defense were making about $8K per month, but that doesn't happen often.

[Fall_X]

Enough to quit the day job?

Yes, but there's also enough money to quit the day job in acting or making music - it depends on how good (and how lucky) you are.

[Ray Beez]

While we're talking about money, how much money is there in making Flash games? Enough to quit the day job?

One article said the creators of Desktop Tower Defense were making about $8K per month, but that doesn't happen often.

yeah, but that kind of success and income off one game isn't sustainable. The guy quit his day job, but I'd like to know how he's doing now, one year later... I'm sure the revenue of DTTD is declining.

[Taels]

Well, they did release Flash Element TD 2 and Multiplayer DTD (and some other games), so they're probably doing alright.

[AzraelKans]

Well... is hard to know, but I think people on the long run go for quality rather than cheap quick play.

Does it pay? well if its finished and is good then it does, I still cant believe what happened to sins of the sollar empire, is a super complicated space soap opera multiplayer rts for PC only and no copy protection whatsoever. Any publisher would have laughed at these guys told them is commercial suicide and killed the project within the first 6 months, Instead is right there in the top 10, generating buzz and selling like crazy.

In the other hand 2 titles, peggle, line rider. They are good and engaging but to be honest you probably can do a simple clone of each in a week (end). yet they have sold millions worldwide.

Game developing is not an exact science.

[Schfifty Five]

Thanks for all the responses. I definitely wasn't expecting so much feedback so quickly. I think mostly the responses confirm what I suspected in the first place. Which is unfortunate for me, because it means that to be successful, I'll probably have to focus more on the aspect of game design which don't interest me as much. But, it's certainly still better than a real job either way.

To be honest, though, I doubt this will change much about the games I design, because though it would be nice to make some money, I do it more out of obsession than out of financial need anyways. I get so wrapped up in these projects, I can't pull myself away from them. Until I'm about 70% done, at which point I get obsessed with something else. Ah well. I figure there are two different learning curves in this type of business, the first is learning the software, and the second is learning about the demographics and marketing considerations. I'm good at one, but haven't progressed so much at the other.

Another thing about more complicated games is (if they're popular/successful enough) you can make a sequel with few major changes and get the sequel sponsored for as much as, maybe even more than, the original, with far less work than it took for the original.

For example Vector TD (made by the same guy as Flash Element TD):
http://www.candystand.com/ca/play.do?id=18047

And then Vector TD2:
http://www.candystand.com/ca/play.do?id=18281

[hatu]

Well... is hard to know, but I think people on the long run go for quality rather than cheap quick play.

Does it pay? well if its finished and is good then it does, I still cant believe what happened to sins of the sollar empire, is a super complicated space soap opera multiplayer rts for PC only and no copy protection whatsoever. Any publisher would have laughed at these guys told them is commercial suicide and killed the project within the first 6 months, Instead is right there in the top 10, generating buzz and selling like crazy.

In the other hand 2 titles, peggle, line rider. They are good and engaging but to be honest you probably can do a simple clone of each in a week (end). yet they have sold millions worldwide.

Game developing is not an exact science.

Peggle is very polished though, when you think about it theres not too much gameplay but they've made it really addicting with all the cool visuals.

[Alluvian]

I was in a similar mental state to you Wes, making my first game (a relatively complex combination of about 3 board/war games with online multiplayer and all) and wondering if all this work was worth it.

Most good flash games seem to come from finding one good gimmick or funky control scheme, polishing it to a sheen and then releasing it. The end result being people play it, see the neat nugget of an idea at the core and want to show their friends. "Hey, look at the nifty idea over here!". It spreads fast. If lucky, the game also has some replay.

I would replace the word 'stupid' with 'simple' for this conversation. Simple can be brilliant while looking stupid to a casual observer.

My personal game got too big for me as I got into the AI and the multiplayer and all the problems that it brings. What I want is to drop the AI and JUST do multiplayer, but then you have a game that becomes unplayable once people stop playing it. Also, you have a catch 22 with GETTING people to play it. Hard to get word of mouth when the first person can't play the game until person 2, 3, and 4 wander by.

So I wandered away from flash for a few months, came back here about a month ago and in helping answer questions, the programmer in me woke up again and I started a much easier project, one I am confidant I will eventually get done. It is really just waiting on art assets from my wife, a cobbled together story, and for me to finish a few other non-game works in progress.