New Unity Version released with lots of exiting features, unity used for major MMOs

[tomsamson]

Yup, now that XNA had its big bang announcment for the fall (http://board.flashkit.com/board/showthread.php?t=772877 ) here´s the next big one from the unity guys:
The next unity update is up and it brings many exciting new features, see here:
http://unity3d.com/unity/whats-new/unity-2.1

Besides that, and this is probably interesting to those worrying about browser plugin penetration numbers:
Unity Technologies announced that "Funcom, which is behind Anarchy Online and Age of Conan, decided to use Unity for their upcoming browser based MMO project. And Cartoon Network decided to switch their FusionFall MMO from an old-fashioned non-web-based engine, to ...Unity"

So this will surely have a propper boosting impact on the plugin penetration numbers

[MikeMD]

The only announcement from Unity camp that makes any difference at all is the availability of windows version.

Until then they can't be taken seriously.

[tomsamson]

I get rarerely to post on FK these days and when i do i´d rather like to post information i think could be benefitial to fellow game developers and have interesting chats, not get into bashing discussions.
But man. as usual obviously many, many people have a different opinion than you. You can state factual information as factual information, why do you always state your personal opinion as if it was a fact?
Have you read the post? Companies like Funcom and Caroon Network are using unity for major mmos, big portals like shockwave, instant action etc are hosting unity games and others are making unity games for iphone and wii.
I understand that you´re maybe not into buying a mac to develop unity content, that doesn´t change anything in the fact that it is used by more and more companies and its taken quite serious by lots of people.
The plugin penetration will raise a lot thanks to the things i listed above and besides that, as discussed earlier, thanks to the point that unity is a serious development tool for other platforms (unlike flash where the performance is laughable on most platforms) the plugin penetration numbers and therefore the side how many developers use it is way less important than with flash.

[.hooligan]

Might have a play around with it when I get some free time. Good to see its being accepted by a few big companies. Maybe I should start unitykit.com i'll go buy it now.

[tomsamson]

well,dunno about making an own site like flashkit for other technologies nowadays. Back when flashkit launched and became pretty big quickly the flash and internet landscape was quite different. There wasn´t a big flash community yet, a handful of em launched quite close to each other and blogs weren´t used that much either.
Nowadays there are several forums and blogs for each community, there is already a quite nice forum with cool community for unity so dunno if another flashkit type site would be that much visited.
If you´re into making a blog type thing posting samples and general info that could be cool

[MikeMD]

I'm not bashing them. It looks like they have a good product, and I'd like to try it too, but not having a windows version is a fatal flaw.

The fact that more people are starting to use it is meaningless right now, because even after 3 years they aren't even being used as much as Wild Tangent was 7-8 years ago. Disney and other large portals used Wild Tangent more than they use Unity now, and Wild Tangent is long gone and forgotten, so that means nothing. They use everything from Java to WTangent to Director at one time or another.

That is a fact. You need a lot of developers if you want to attempt to replace flash as a plugin of choice, and that means windows version as soon as possible. If that is not their goal, and they are just happy with far fewer people developing games for ( insert platform ) then why are we even discussing it here. That is a totally irrelevant discussion then.

Where's Silverlight by the way. They also had a lot of big announcements a while back, and what I said then turned out to be 100% right so far.

And to make it clear, I want them to get that Windows version out and get a real shot at it.

[tomsamson]

As i said they´e working on a windows version of the IDE, so any discussion regarding that is basically useless. If you want to make games with it now buy a mac, if you don´t want to buy a mac wait for the windows version. That easy.
Again, unity is not just a plugin technology so it is used on other platforms for other kinds of stuff, too and therefore a comparison with wild tangent makes no sense.
If you only care about web deployment then regarding plugin penetration how high it is at one point isn´t hugely important, such things can change quite quickly. See how low the director plugin penetration is now compared to where it was just 2-3 years ago. Also as soon as major clients use a technology (as it is the case now) that means there´s money for developing content so that is quite important, once there´s money for content and some developers there will be nice content soon enough and that in return raises plugin penetration.
Regarding Silverlight its much more comparable to flash (while still beeing more comparable to flash4 than flash 8/9/10) but its not playing in the same league as unity at all, too many feature differences.
I personally don´t care if unity reaches the same plugin penetration as flash has, if browser deploy was the only option that´d look different but as long as there are many deploy options then there´s always some one could go for.
I care about whether something can be made nicely in flash, then i make it in flash, if it can be made much nicer with something else then i use something else.

[MikeMD]

Again, unity is not just a plugin technology so it is used on other platforms for other kinds of stuff, too and therefore a comparison with wild tangent makes no sense.

This is flashkit, therefore browser games discussions are the only ones that do make sense. Who cares about other platforms, it's irrelevant here, we already know all that anyway. It's Flash vs. Unity vs. Director vs. WTangent, vs Java. That's what keeps it relevant.

if it can be made much nicer with something else then i use something else.

Then you should be developing for PS3 exclusively, much nicer than flash or Unity.

Besides everything you are telling me now, I've heard last year, and the year before that, and the year before that one. Unity is still practically nonexistant in the browser gaming world and will continue to be so until windows version is out. Then ( if they ever release it ) it will at least have a shot, still doesn't guarantee anything.

[tomsamson]

Obviously we have an a bit varrying view on what the games forum is about and therefore what is relevant here.
Yes, this is mainly about flash game development and yes, flash is mainly a browser technology. Despite that the games forum in particular is mostly visited by indy game developers and therefore i think any kind of major news that relates to indy game development is of interest for many here, doesn´t have to be purely about browser games.
"Then you should be developing for PS3 exclusively, much nicer than flash or Unity."
That is complete nonsense, unity3D is no console, it is middleware to make content with, with focus on creating game content.
One can create games for several platforms with it, once a ps3 deploy is supported also content for that.
What about the ps3 is nicer than creating content in unity? Does the ps3 have a graphic chipset that allows to do graphic features not possible with unity?
The whole statement just doesn´t make any sense.

"I've heard last year, and the year before that, and the year before that one. "
What have you heard 3 years ago?
Its just been a short while that unity is becoming so big that there´s more and more public discussions on it popping up everywhere.

Again, i understand it that if you have a total browser plugin centric view and are not into getting a mac at all then unity is not interesting for you until a pc ide version comes out, but yeah, no need to reiterate that one point over and over and mix it with false or uninformed or just nonsensical arguments anytime someone talks about some unity news.

[MikeMD]

This the second time you accuse me of passing my opinion as fact or making nonsense claims, when in fact it's exactly the opposite.

Very simple test if you want facts:

Go to 2-3 ( or 10 if you feel like it ) major portals and count flash games, then count director games, then count how many Unity games.

Those are the facts. All you posted were Unity PR announcements, and we all know very well 1/2 of those projects announced today may be cancelled before the end of summer ( yes, that's the way it goes sometimes ).

So, no, I'm posting facts. Unity is 3 years old and if you counted those games on those portals correctly, you will see that saying "Its just been a short while that unity is becoming so big that there´s more and more public discussions on it popping up everywhere" is just your opinion, and I am the one posting facts.

And where are these great games. I know for a fact that I could do a game like that pucca racer in about 2-3 weeks, by myself, if I had Unity installed.
So, if it's so popular what's the problem, or is it just popular among sucky developers who can't finish a game in less than a year?

And I'm in favor of Unity, I'm just saying, let's cut the PR and crap and release the windows version, because if you want to do business the right way, that is a must.

[tomsamson]

I just moaned about things like not too long ago you comparing unity with director although director is ages behind in lots of areas and now you´re comparing it to the ps3 which makes even less sense in many ways.
Yes, the news i posted in this thread are from a press release but if its validated information its not worth less because its in a press release. Besides that i tried the new version briefly and so far liked it a lot so me posting it is more based on personal first hand experience than doing a copy & paste on a press release.
Besides that in case you were implying i´m just doing unity PR its not been too long ago that i posted about positive XNA developments, too.
I just post about news on game dev related topics that interest me.
If there was a flash or some other tech news i´d find really nice or interesting i´d post about that,too.


"I'm just saying, let's cut the PR and crap and release the windows version, because if you want to do business the right way, that is a must."

Again, this is a case example for what i´m talking about, a statement heavily jaded by your personal view which is biased by not wanting to buy a mac and only focusing on browser deploy and then you generalise it as if your view would be the case for everyone. More and more companies and one man developers alike use unity now so why would they be doing business the wrong way just because its not the right way for you?
Yes, a windows ide would lead to more users, doesn´t make it any less useful to those using it now.

[rachil0]

I agree that the current lack of support for windows developers makes Unity come off as a fringe technology at the moment. I am not buying a mac just to support my gamedev hobby. I wonder what is in their codebase that is making it nonportable?

A windows only program can use win sales to finance the ports, though a multiplatform program from the start is of course better. There is so little market for mac-only software though - will enough revenue be coming in when it's time to do the win port?

[.hooligan]

Unless you use something like vmware to run OSX in your windows environment and beat the windows IDE

[MikeMD]

Again, this is a case example for what i´m talking about, a statement heavily jaded by your personal view which is biased by not wanting to buy a mac and only focusing on browser deploy

How is this my personal view when even Unity guys came right here on this forum looking for Flash games ( don't know what happened to that in the end ) and may others publicly mentioned the very same thing.

They need games, lots of them, and the only way to get that is through a windows version. I don't have time or desire to buy a mac just for that, but if I had it installed and found a few free weeks somewhere in September, for example, I could play around with it and port some existing games I have to Unity ( most of them already exist as 3D models, and game logic is already done in flash ) . Same goes for current Director developers, I'm sure, since they already deal with real 3D.

I'm only focusing on browser deploy in this exchange, because that is what interests me and we are on flashkit. If I were more interested in deploying on Wii, then I wouldn't be discussing it on this board at all. Just trying to keep it relevant.

I'm not implying that you are doing PR for them, just saying that once again, all we have are PR announcements and no actual games. I don't really care about Microsoft's announcement either. When/if I start caring about that I'll be on their board, not here.

will enough revenue be coming in when it's time to do the win port?

That is what I'm wondering too. It's been 3 years and no windows version. I know of a few 3D apps makers with Windows only versions who have been saying for years about working on Mac version, and it just never comes out.
Is it the same deal with Unity or is it almost ready? Just because a company says they are working on it, doesn't mean it's coming soon or ever.

Most game developers are on windows, so I find it pretty difficult to believe they can be a significant player until they have that taken care of. This is not the printing industry or Video editing. Even there, Apple can afford to stay Mac only with FCP because they make most of their money with iPods, hardware, iTunes, etc....Unity doesn't have that luxury.

[luxregina]

I don't know anything about Unity's politics or plans, but I know that some devloppers are actually NOT trying to cather to the mass ... meaning that compiting with Flash, or other browser based games might just not be their priority there. I take that Unity isn't a huge corporation, and they might just be aiming for quality over quantity, and they would rather secure some strong partnership ( like what they did with Funcom ) versus being used for every amateur game, which could ( according to a certain point of view ) reflect poorly on what their engine is about and what it can do...

Now, as an amateur, I don't really care for them : I won't buy a Mac, I desagree strongly with lots of Apple's stances and business descisions, but I wouldn't say that these choices aren't serious, or solid ... only future will tell ...
Now, as a professional that lives from Flash ( mostly ) I'll tell you that I've seen the same logic not too long ago : In my company, we devlopp mostly on PC, but we HAVE to buy a Mac Intel in order to devlopp products for the I-Phone ... I'd love telling you that Apple is wrong, and that it will come back and bite them, but i'd be too afraid that the future proves me wrong ...

All of that to say that if they are aiming for the sole pro-market, their choice isn't nessecerly that stupid : most serious coders are versatile enough to go from one system to another without much trouble, buying a dev Mac for a company isn't a big investment at all ( and most of us have it already to test our Flash products on Safari, IE Mac or FF Mac ... ) and that the fact that there won't be a multitude of "noise" ( aka Indie Games ) around could actually be an asset.

In short, with no real insight on what their strategy is, there is no real way to state if they ( unity ) are right or wrong ... I wish they were wrong, but that's another story

[Incrue]

In short, with no real insight on what their strategy is, there is no real way to state if they ( unity ) are right or wrong ... I wish they were wrong, but that's another story

Humm...why? Dont you think about the cool things you could do with it ? Or the competition it can create?

[luxregina]

Whether or not it makes me happy, or I wished I could use it is irrelevant to judge if their strategy is the right one ... I might just not be part of who they try to target. And if I "really" wanted to, as I said, I have a Mac at work I could work on. My point earlier is that not every company tries to cater to the mass, and as Lux, amateur dev, i'm part of it.

EDIT : oh, and the competition...well depends on what competition you are talking about : the major dev studio can certainly afford the Mac devloppment, and it's not like their product is exclusive or anything ... so if it's a restricted competition in a very elitist market, that could serve everyone : Unity, the devs, the players. Not having every amateur dev, from 7 to 77 years old out there toying with their product, outputting oh-humm results and clouding the market with 1000 crappy games for 1 that stands out could pay of ultimately. There again, that's not what I wish it would be, be I'd be hesitant to say that they can't be taken seriously. - that's what I was reacting to, and hopefully trying to explain Tom's stance on the subject.

[MikeMD]

From reading their PR and some other things I'm pretty sure Unity guys want it used by everybody. In fact they'd give their left arms and legs + sacrifice their offspring to Satan if that would help them replace flash ( since they are Mac only, you could say, they already are in bed with Satan Junior ).

Let's say they go the quality not quantity route. What will they end up with? Not enough plugin penetration to compete with flash, meaning at best they'll be something like Director in the browser market, and they can't compete with serious developers with more manpower, bigger budgets and using more serious tools developing for Consoles. So you end up with crappy games for consoles ( compared to what big guys release ). So what is the point. Nintendo , EA are not going to switch to Unity for Wii or PS3 games.

Unity can only compete in browser and mobile market. Sure you can deploy to Wii, but all you are going to get there will be crap Wii games. Exactly the scenario you describe, 1000 crappy games and 1 good one. Only it will be on some console instead on the web and will take longer because not enough developers will be using it.

No windows version = game over, so I don't think it can be taken seriously until they take care of that.

[luxregina]

I think you are making two false assumptions there :

1)sacrifice their offspring to Satan if that would help them replace flash : not sure if you meant it that way, but Flash != games ... yeah, some games are in Flash, some browser games are in Flash, but I can tell you that games are a very very small percentage of the money generated by Flash websites, apps, etc ... so Unity, at best could get a shot at the Flash game market ( that ain't that big in comparison on the other uses of Flash )... So, I desagree, I don't think Unity wants to overpower Flash : they might want to be bigger in the "browser game" market, but that by no means, mean that they are ready to take over flash ...because Flash is much, much bigger than just games...

So they can't really hope for people to install their plugin if they want something else than "good, plain 3D gaming" ( which restricts us a lot ... now we are talking about a quite small core target versus all the Flash users )

Now, if they want to take over the Browser Game market, they might be shooting for AAA titles, a few of them, but that become viral very fast ( like their "dino hunt game") This puts them in a niche already, which leads me to point 2 :

2)you seem to think that most of the money generated by that market is by indie devloppers, and they are hence the market "leaders" (making or breaking what's going to be successfull) : I don't have hard numbers, but I don't think that most of the money comes from Indie guys, I think they only get the crums of it ( the company I work for charge a LOT for the few games apps we did so far, way beyond what an Indie dev would dream of ... )

As I said, I think that most big companies already have a Mac to work on ( common, my employer is a pretty hardcore PC dev, and we still have few macs in there )... Unity policy make no difference to them ... if they are seduced by the options of the whole thing, switching on Mac is a no-brainer...

I think that these big companies is what Unity is shooting for, because that's where the big money is ... and these companies can regardless devlopp on PC or Mac ( think Iphone here! )... so the "Mac only" argument becomes moot.

I'm kind of repeating my earlier post here, so I will stop there I have no intention repeating and devlopping the same arguments over again : hopefully I will have successfully conveyed a different point of view that you can understand ( I'm not saying agree with ...) If not, repeating it for a 3rd time won't help anybody

[MikeMD]

dino hunt game

Good example for my case too.

That game is about as good as any average Director game, nothing more nothing less, so as far as browser games go nothing new there.

Now for the Wii and eventually other console deployment. Who in their right mind would bother playing that on Wii or PS3 given the options on those consoles, so "you can also deploy on Wii line" is totally irrelevant unless you have the means to produce games that can actually compete on that level..

So what are they trying to accomplish?

I think that these big companies is what Unity is shooting for, because that's where the big money is

How does that help them? Big company buys Unity software and pays the same as a small company. Unless there is some kind of a licensing deal ( console distribution maybe ), Unity gets nothing more.
I know quite well what the prices can be. I did a few games for larger companies and they sold it for up to 30 times more than what I got from them. But Unity or Adobe in this case see none of that money. Once you buy their software, you can make as many games as you like and stick them on as many sites as you like. We don't pay Adobe beyond purchasing price of Flash, no matter how big some Flash game is, same with Unity.

I think they have to sell their software to make money, and that means windows version so more people buy it. It's a business, that's what they most likely must do to survive long term, and Unity games will mostly end up as browser and mobile games. I just don't see Unity developers being able to compete on console level, so that part is just marketing nonsense. Sure somebody may get lucky and make some money there, but let's be realistic. Guys who did dino game vs. Capcom or Nintendo. You see the problem right away.

Another possibility could be they ( Unity team ) will make games themselves for clients and make money that way, so they aren't only Unity software developers, but also Unity game developers.
And from what I've read CASUAL gaming is their target audience, so forget about consoles. What it comes down to is Unity vs. Director and Flash.