US Vice President choice thread...

[Loyal Rogue]

My stance is simply that this country's laws are greatly similar to those of Judeo-Christian philosophy (I won't say based anymore simply because that argument is tired). That's all.

I can agree with this statement.

[Frets]

[QUOTE=villain2,,,That's all.[/QUOTE]


Somehow I'm not believing that's all you'll bring up. The U.S. government was not formed as a relection of Judeo Christianic beliefs. Niether Christianity nor Judaism had anything to do with ancient Greece where democracy was first introduced. If judeo-christianity shared that much with religion. God would be an elected title.

[villain2]

That's all I was stating, not all I'll say

[villain2]

That's all I was stating, not all I'll say.

But yes, you're right!

The terms "One Nation Under God" and "Endowed by their Creator" never existed in the Declaration of Independence or the Pledge ... that was a lie

The nation was established by atheists instead of protestants as people have lied about

In God We Trust is right wing propaganda and was snuck onto our money

John Adams never said "We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge or gallantry would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution is designed only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate for any other."

George Washington never said "It is impossible to rightly govern a nation without God and the Bible." or "Let us raise a standard to which the wise and honest can repair; the rest is in the hands of God."

Yup, Judeo-Christian values had nothing at all to do with the foundation of the United States *rolls eyes*

[gerbick]

You're full of hyperbole this morning. Nobody said "had nothing to do with it", seriously; get your eyes checked.

What I've read, and I'll leave it up to you to re-read it... it was said that Judeo-Christian values do not have a monopoly with the foundation of the United States.

I think that statement carries more weight than just wagging around some inability to read what's been said and more about you read what you wanted to read.

So to make sure you understand what I am saying now; America was started by a mixed set of common/overlaying backgrounds that ranged from atheist to judeo-christian to puritan/quaker to freemason to whatever else you can damn near imagine and the parts of that melange of backgrounds is what created the US. To ignore that and just say that one or the other is the only value to lend it's hand in the creation of this country is sheer ignorance.

And to ignore those values is equally ignorant.

This portion of the conversation really has been well established if any of you people actually had paid attention in elementary school. The rest of the finger-wagging and hard stance posing is just adults behaving badly.

[Loyal Rogue]

Wow.... where to start?
I hate to tell you, but you really are your own worst enemy here.
Actually, in your sarcasm you were way more truthful then you likely intended or were aware of.

The terms "One Nation Under God" and "Endowed by their Creator" never existed in the Declaration of Independence or the Pledge ... that was a lie

The term "Under God" was not part of the original Pledge of Allegiance.
The Pledge as originally written read

"I pledge allegiance to my flag and the republic for which it stands, one nation indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

The term "Under God" wasn't even considered when the pledge was written.
The only terms that were originally considered, but left out were "equality" and "fraternity", mainly because a majority of people opposed equality for women and blacks at the time.

It wasn't until 1954 in the height of the "Red Communism" hysteria that the government added the words "Under God" to distinguish us from the "Godless" communists.

As for "Endowed by their Creator" that is not an exclusive reference to a Judeo-Christian deity.

The nation was established by atheists instead of protestants as people have lied about

I'm also guilty of making the false association between the individual Founding Fathers' personal beliefs and the foundation of our government and country.

In truth, the Founding Fathers were a lot more intelligent and able to divorce the official founding principles from their personal or religious beliefs than the majority of us seem to be able to do.
They recognized the need to make a secular government based on the rights of the people alone without influence of religion, and made that very clear many times.

Ironically enough, one purpose this served was to ensure equal protection of religious freedoms for all.
It's only those of us (yes, I'm including myself) with personal and religious agendas that attempt to twist, pervert, or historically revise the secular foundation of the United States of America to more closely match our own bias or need to bolster our own spiritual insecurities.

In God We Trust is right wing propaganda and was snuck onto our money

You seem to be accidentally right again without even knowing it.
"In God We Trust" did not appear on our money until almost 100 years after the founding of our country, and even then it didn't appear consistently until 1938.
http://www.ustreas.gov/education/fac...-we-trust.html

John Adams never said "We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge or gallantry would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution is designed only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate for any other."

Adams was a Unitarian who's personal beliefs would go against a lot of today's "christian" beliefs.

Adams is also quoted as saying the following:

In referring to the myth of the Incarnation of Christ,

"God is an essence that we know nothing of. Until this awful blasphemy is got rid of, there never will be any liberal science in the world."

I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved -- the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!

Also

The United States of America have exhibited, perhaps, the first example of governments erected on the simple principles of nature; and if men are now sufficiently enlightened to disabuse themselves of artifice, imposture, hypocrisy, and superstition, they will consider this event as an era in their history. Although the detail of the formation of the American governments is at present little known or regarded either in Europe or in America, it may hereafter become an object of curiosity. It will never be pretended that any persons employed in that service had interviews with the gods, or were in any degree under the influence of Heaven, more than those at work upon ships or houses, or laboring in merchandise or agriculture; it will forever be acknowledged that these governments were contrived merely by the use of reason and the senses.

And let us not forget that John Adams also signed the Treaty of Tripoli that I mentioned earlier which is an official US government document, as opposed to personal quotes, and states in no uncertain terms,

"As the government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion;"

George Washington never said "It is impossible to rightly govern a nation without God and the Bible." or "Let us raise a standard to which the wise and honest can repair; the rest is in the hands of God."

George Washington was also a deist and a freemason who did not believe in the Trinity or the divination of Christ, and was openly rebuked in church for refusing to take communion.

Regardless, as I stated above, the individual personal beliefs of each Founding Father had no bearing on the secular government that they created so most of these arguements are moot from the get-go.

Yup, Judeo-Christian values had nothing at all to do with the foundation of the United States

Yes, according to the Founding Fathers that statement is correct.

Judeo-Christian values are as responsible for the foundation of the United States as are the values of any other religion or mythology.
Please tell me, what Judeo-Christian values this country was based on that is not found in every other religion, society, or tribe?
The only ones that come to mind are murder, robbery, and libel/slander which to the best of my knowledge are not promoted values of or absent from any other religious or non-religious society or government on earth

I would like to add one more article of evidence to be considered...

Even disregarding the complete rejection of Christ (which is impossible for christianity), according to the Ten Commandments, a requirement of a Judeo-Christian foundation and monotheism in general, adherents are forbidden to worship or erect any idols of or graven images of other gods and goddesses.
However, adorning our US government Capitol building (as well as other state capitol buildings), and various forms of our money, and even being one of the most treasured and iconic symbols of our nation, is a represention of the Roman Goddess Libertas, better known as Lady Liberty, or the Statue of Liberty.

Kind of impossible that a nation supposedly founded on Judeo-Christian beliefs would officially erect monuments or statues/idols of pagen goddesses.

[FlashLackey]

And LR continues to confuse The United States, a country, with The United States Government, a system of government.

Nobody that I see here has claimed that the government is a Christian theocracy. All of the quotes and examples given by LR are anecdotal and do not accurately represent the values of most of the country and indeed most of the founding fathers.

Amongst a hundred or so founding fathers, 3-4 of them were not Christians. And those that did not consider themselves Christians considered their values to be from Christianity anyway.

The government was designed to ensure freedom of religion (or lack of). I agree to the extent that the founding fathers were smart in their decision to not establish a state church. That doesn't say anything about what the prevailing values considered during the activities involved with founding an entire country were. The people who founded the country attribute their values to Christianity. The people who built the country, made laws and created the culture of the US were overwhelmingly Christians.

[gerbick]

The people who built the country, made laws and created the culture of the US were overwhelmingly Christians.

But not exclusive in their backgrounds, values, nor only Christian by their influenced value system. That's overlooked all too easily.

For instance, we know other cultures. They did then too.

[gerbick]

Explain this away... after you get your chuckles.

Seriously. Americans no longer surprise me. And this flies, is allowed, and isn't frowned upon at all?

[FlashLackey]

Don't you think that giving these knuckleheads an audience has the ramification of reinforcing stereotypes?

[gerbick]

Don't you think that giving these knuckleheads an audience has the ramification of reinforcing stereotypes?

It's a view of the stereotype I already hold of white people in large amounts, actually - most are closet racists and if not, when angered, will resort to using the slurs because... well, they feel like they are privileged enough to think that way without fear of consequence. That's not 100% my view - half of my own family is white (don't forget my mixed heritage)... but even in that, I find no comfort that I'm starting to think that people are seeing more and more stock in color than anything else.

What does it mean? Not a damn thing. The sun will set again tonight, and raise again tomorrow. But I'm starting to see people as very racist as of late. Race is all too important in this country; when the best question is "What's so damn good about right now that you'd be that intolerant to even allow yourself to dwindle into sheer racist tendencies because... well because you think you can?"

You asked. Don't forget that.

[FlashLackey]

I agree that race probably does play a role in peoples thinking in all directions to varying degrees.

I did ask. But, I was just joking that posting your video was similar to me posting the other video in that they were both examples of bad behavior.

[gerbick]

I know. Just thought I'd shock you right back

Seriously, today I went one-on-one with a well-dressed, yet total redneck while coming out of Best Buy today. It was an chance meeting; however it killed me that he just walks up to me and says aloud "I bet you're going to vote for Obama... that is, if you can vote. You look like a Muslim, or a Muslim-lover. Can you vote boy?" all while holding out his hand for me to shake.

Of course, being the kind of person I am, I reach right out, start to basically crush this troglodyte's hand while saying in my typical tone I tend to use towards children "Of course I can vote. Too bad they don't enforce literacy in this state to determine eligibility to vote... if they had, I'm afraid that you would not measure up. And for the record, only my father had the privilege of ever calling me "boy". You are not he."

I found out later today that the gentlemen in question is the cousin of the local McCain supporter group.

Way to pick them.

[FlashLackey]

A dude walked up and said that to you? Exactly like that?

[gerbick]

A dude walked up and said that to you? Exactly like that?

Yes. I draw out the loonies... perhaps because I don't respond or react.

[FlashLackey]

That really is insane. I don't think I would have remained as calm given similar circumstances thrown my way.

[gerbick]

That really is insane. I don't think I would have remained as calm given similar circumstances thrown my way.

Why be upset? There has to be at least one sane person in all conversations. And for once, I qualified.

I still have that one question... "What is so good about right now to continue voting in the same pattern?"

[FlashLackey]

The alternative proposes a greater dose of the government growth we just experienced. In that sense, it would be "more of the same."

That's one reason.

[Frets]

There is no evidence that McCain would reduce government.
Sure he'd outsource as much of it as he could but that wouldn't mean there would be less.

[FlashLackey]

That's true. There is no guarantee. But, at least he says he will reduce it and doesn't boast that he is for expanding it.