Elements. Fantasy cards game

[DarkGate]

Interesting idea but I think anyone with a few reverse times and freezes would easily defeat this deck. I still think the nova/rainbow deck is dominant. I have tried other decks but nothing comes close.

That said I would be in favour of nerfing it because I think there are many other interesting strategies possible. Significants increasing the life cost or just making it cost 1 entropy to use. I think the later would work better because it would mean all nova decks would have to use mark of Entropy to be effective and it would stop the crazy fast starts where someone throws down 2 or 3 novas and 3 or 4 creatures the first round.

I think that Kethaq has a very good idea with using making novas cost 1 or 2 entropy as it would provide a much more balanced game allowing other strategies to develop.

[Bianary]

Yea but Dimensional shield is one of the few ways that non-nova users can really try to effectively counter many of the all nova strategies out there such as the poison novas. If there is one card at this point that needs to be tweaked above all others its probably nova because it doesn't really have much of a penalty for giving 2 of every quantum, especially since there's so many good cheap cards out there like chrysaora, poison, freeze, lycan, graboid, etc. The nova straegies allow you to have the best of every deck for a relatively cheap cost.

I agree that Nova is a problem. That doesn't mean dimensional shield isn't, though.

They're both trouble.

Nova decks btw aren't countered by dimensional shields so much as by reverse time or lobotomizer decks - they almost always rely on their creatures, and don't have a lot of energy to spare to get them back out a second or third time once you put them away. Dimensional shields counter everything, but if anything Nova decks can probably handle them better than most since deflagration is 2 fire and Nova provides that easily.

Edit: I like the idea of nova costing an entropy, that would at least slow them down a turn so non-nova decks can have a chance to get into play against a nova deck. I think 1 entropy would be a good place to start, and see if it helps balance them out. It would put a crunch on nova decks for round 1 though - unless they put in some pillars to play for free they'd find themselves always having to discard initially until they got an entropy to play nova. That seems suitable for balancing out a very powerful card.

[DarkGate]

Dimensional shields don't counter poison I know and they're really needed because of the high cost of dragons, the time it takes to get a decent amount of them out there, and how easily they can be taken out by either a lightning or reverse time(which I think is more effective because it doesn't allow to get a new card and dragons are costly to summon) so the time gained by the dimensional shields is really the best way for the strat to be effective.

[kethaq]

I agree that Nova is a problem. That doesn't mean dimensional shield isn't, though.

They're both trouble.

Nova decks btw aren't countered by dimensional shields so much as by reverse time or lobotomizer decks Dimensional shields counter everything, but if anything Nova decks can probably handle them better than most since deflagration is 2 fire and Nova provides that easily.

Dimensional sheild is powerful but I am not convinced yet that it is as overwhelming as the nova deck. Maybe that's because I play nova. I usually find I can overwhelm a deck before it has a chance to get the dimensional sheild up, or get it down low enough that I only need 1 deflag to finish it off.

I agree reverse time is the best weapon against a nova deck. The key is to slow a nova deck down as much as possible in the begining because any other strategy takes longer to develop but can probably prevail if given more time. Against a nova deck I use my reverse time cards ASAP, because no new cards means no new resources. Against other decks I hold off to hit a expensive card.

Really what makes a good game is if there are many viable strategies, I think that thereat if Nova got nerfed then Aether might become the only way to go. But that would have to be seen.

[DarkGate]

I have an all aether deck right now and there are other strats than do well against my deck occasionally. A normal poison freeze strat still does decent and would do better with an actual person. A fire deck is still viable against mine because of how expensive aether tends to be. I'm sure a good tiome strat could be made if nova wasn't so powerful especially if since aether decks rely on using expensive cards so reverse times and eternity would be effective counter measures. An aether deck has a lot more weaknesses than a nova deck does, but right now a lot of the decks I go against in the top 50 employ nova in at least some way.

[-Manwe-]

Nearly all the top 50 are Nova decks by definition (30 cards, 6 Novas). Most of those are also partially multicolor to take advantage of spare quanta... even if most of them are based around one or two key combos such as Firefly, Deathmob, Poison, or Line At Kinko's (my name for Dimensional Shield + Parallel Universe, hehe).

The environment is very very multicolor right now, that's fun because it lets everyone tinker with all the colors. I wouldn't take that away, I think... what I would take away is some of the SPEED and CHEAPNESS of the environment.

Right now there is a very large number of cards being played, which is a sign of decent balance, but they are the cheapest, most Nova affordable cards, 4 quanta or less.

The environment is also way over the design speedlimit. Even decks based completely around Firefly don't put the Life dragon in, because games end before he can come into play. The fastest, cheapest combos are used - meaning Firefly Queen yes, Deathmob no, etc.

To fix this I think Elements needs a rather big overhaul:

1. Change Nova to cost 1 Entropy and generate 10 quanta each of 3 random elements. This fits more with Entropy's UNpredictable character and would stop its use as a 6-card staple. It would also slow the game down making non-Nova strats viable. At the same time, 10 quanta is enough to play a Dragon - you never know what you'll get with Nova but if you're prepared you could really cash in.

2. Increase color crossover. More cards like Rustler and Firefly that generate other-color quanta; more cards like Graboid that use other-color quanta. This is a nifty idea and really separates Elements from other CCGs.

I want to see lots more builds that use "mana chains" like Firefly-Rustler-Queen. That is IMHO the most fun build to play in the game right now.

(Well, Otyugh-Blessing was, but it gets CREAMED in the current environment because most Nova decks pack a copy of every control card).

[DarkGate]

Haha Otyugh blessing is fun to go against because I can't just summon away against them. I actually have to be patient and summon in bunches to make sure I get my quantum's worth.

[kethaq]

The environment is also way over the design speedlimit. Even decks based completely around Firefly don't put the Life dragon in, because games end before he can come into play. The fastest, cheapest combos are used - meaning Firefly Queen yes, Deathmob no, etc.

To fix this I think Elements needs a rather big overhaul:

1. Change Nova to cost 1 Entropy and generate 10 quanta each of 3 random elements. This fits more with Entropy's UNpredictable character and would stop its use as a 6-card staple. It would also slow the game down making non-Nova strats viable. At the same time, 10 quanta is enough to play a Dragon - you never know what you'll get with Nova but if you're prepared you could really cash in.

2. Increase color crossover. More cards like Rustler and Firefly that generate other-color quanta; more cards like Graboid that use other-color quanta. This is a nifty idea and re ally separates Elements from other CCGs.

I want to see lots more builds that use "mana chains" like Firefly-Rustler-Queen. That is IMHO the most fun build to play in the game right now.

(Well, Otyugh-Blessing was, but it gets CREAMED in the current environment because most Nova decks pack a copy of every control card).

I like your ideas, I do think the game is too fast right now. When I go with a offensive deck I can usually win in 5-6 rounds.

Either one of the changes you suggested for nova would be enough to nerf it. I think both would make it unviable. The strength of Nova is you reliably know what you are going to get. Earlier I was suggesting making quantum pillars stronger too.

I do like the multicolor combos too. I use the queen-firefly-rustler as my principle offence in a nova deck. It works really well because it sustains itself and the AI doesn't attack the rustlers because they are weak offensively.

I started off playing the oty-blessing in 0.3 but you are right it just can't stand up anymore.

I was thinking about how the game would go if we started with 200 life instead (but there is something elegant about 100)

[icecue7]

Nova reminds me a lot of Black Lotus now XD.

[DarkGate]

I was actually thinking about how it'd go if it was 200 life as well and it'd be interesting to see.

[icecue7]

Ziter has 3 scores submitted in the weekly top 50. What's up with the MochiAds?

[Asharai]

It would be nice if you put that clicking on back button when fighting PvP lvl4 will make you lose the game before it starts... I must have clicked 20 times on it in a row trying to find that Elements deck before noticing that my gold went down...

[Bianary]

1. Change Nova to cost 1 Entropy and generate 10 quanta each of 3 random elements. This fits more with Entropy's UNpredictable character and would stop its use as a 6-card staple. It would also slow the game down making non-Nova strats viable. At the same time, 10 quanta is enough to play a Dragon - you never know what you'll get with Nova but if you're prepared you could really cash in.

This is just a bit too unpredictable imo. While entropy decks can be chaotic, it's not a good idea to make one that you simply rely on pure luck for if you get the elements you need or not.

Chaos Seed is a bad spell for a reason (To be fair, that reason is because there's almost as many good effects as there are bad and as often as you get rid of the problem enemy you'll give them +3/3 or something equally self-destructive -- same for trying to use it on your creatures, you'll hurt yourself as often as you might help, so it's better to just not use the card at all.)

[DragonBlood87]

Giving a mulligan option to players that use pillars as quantum source might be unfair to players that (not now, in the future) will not.

Also, that is why your mark is there, even without pillars, you have a minimal source of quantums anyway. I do understand however that it is annoying being forced to get rid of a good card during the first turn. I'll find a solution.

The Mulligan option wouldn't have to be related to pillars. It could just be a general solution to getting a bad starting hand: reshuffle your deck and draw 7 cards instead of 8.

As far as having to discard if you can't play anything on your first turn: Maybe, if you decide not to do a Mulligan option, you could increase the maximum hand size by one (or reduce the starting hand size by one) to fix this?


Also, as for the bonus for going first, maybe it could be balanced by one of the following:
* Have both players start with 7 cards instead of 8, and the player going second draws on their first turn.
* Player going second gains a quantum from their mark at the start of their turn.

A comment about the quantum pillars, I like the idea of them,they are just not strong enough with 12 elements.

I could see building a multi-color deck around quantum pillars if the returned 4 0r 5 quantums of a random element but with only 2 I would need to be using a 7 color deck at least to get any advantage from quantum pillars and even then it would be really difficult because I wouldn't be able to use what I wanted when I wanted.

Anyway I just think it would be interesting if they were a bit stronger and a viable strategy could be worked out to use them.

I agree with this. Quantum pillars are always one of the first things I take out. Even increasing them to 3 total (one each of three random elements) would make them much more useful.

Furthermore, Nova might possibly need to be nerfed a bit... perhaps have it only add 2 to a random selection of 6 to 9 elements?


I also have to say that I intensely dislike two of the rare weapons. The Owl's Eye weapon, in my opinion, should not do damage to the opponent in the same turn it was used to damage a creature, and the Morning Star just seems overpowered at 9 damage per turn; I could understand if it was doing even 4 to 5 damage, but having the strongest weapon also be completely uncounterable (except by Phase Shield spamming) seems unreasonable.

But if you can't win with 23 creatures something is seriously wrong with your strategy.

Or you were Boneyard spamming and the opponent played a strong shield. I've had that happen a few times. =/

I was thinking of maybe the immortality spell must be cast every turn with the same cost of 2 aether runes, that should help more or less.

Personally, I agree. Immortality is like Burrow but without the penalty, and it can be cast on any creature instead of being an ability only for specific creatures.

I know it seems like everything is overpowered but keep on playing for a couple more days and improve you own deck... You opponents will suddenly seem much more easy...

I already do pretty well most of the time with my fire deck. The Owl Eye still kills me most of the time when it gets played, though; the opponent usually gets it out in the first three or four turns, and all of my creatures die from a single shot. =/

It would be fine if they weren't pumping out creatures of their own, too; even making it so that it didn't hit me AND a creature in the same turn would help.


Also: Lycanthropes are a bit strong at being a potential 6|6 for 4 quantums, aren't they?

The combo's with Boneyard are too slow compared to other strategies and can be easily countered.

I agree, but pairing an Otyugh up with some Vultures can be fun. Won't guarantee that you will win, but it's generally fun to play.

[Disaru]

Haha Otyugh blessing is fun to go against because I can't just summon away against them. I actually have to be patient and summon in bunches to make sure I get my quantum's worth.

Haha yeah aether deck is hard to play against Otyugh, I usually summon bulk dragons against them or lightning them to lower their defense. It's also tricky vs. time decks, they usually can reverse time 2 dragons i put up.

I also think you need to decrease the effectiveness of nova decks AND even aether decks, let's not kid ourselves, its the most prominent deck-types :P I think momentum should get through all shields to be worth it, INCLUDING dimensional shields which are most prominent.


Some ideas for decks I think need improvements:
Entropy:
-make a creature that can either attack x1, x2, x3, x4 randomly every turn
-Chaos seed could be an all-monster effect but upped to 4 entropys (either all enemy monsters or EVEN all monsters on field, that would be insane)
Death:
-make skeletons unable to be killed (sincetheyre already dead), one rain of fire or thunderstorm (or most shields can do -1 damage) can can demolish a whole strategy lol
-or make skeletons able to die, but another skeleton replaced (although I can see otyughs combo with this)
Earth: (don't see much earth decks, imo its not strong enough)
-Antilon should be able to burrow, but not only target itself but other creatures (burrow enemy creatures to half its attack damage but make it invulnerable)

[Bianary]

I agree with this. Quantum pillars are always one of the first things I take out. Even increasing them to 3 total (one each of three random elements) would make them much more useful.

Just an fyi in case you haven't noticed how they work, currently they do 2 of 1 element. So if you have a 1 quantum card available you still have really bad chances of getting the element you need to actually use it from a pillar. Even splitting them up to be 1 of 2 elements would be a significant improvement imo, 1 of 3 would be worth considering for a deck.

Also: Lycanthropes are a bit strong at being a potential 6|6 for 4 quantums, aren't they?

Lycanthropes are decently balanced. They're very vulnerable to reverse time after transforming (Have to resummon/transform), take two turns to get to that 6/6, are multi-element (The multi-element bonuses are always stronger than single element effects), and on that first turn are very weak to any direct damage -- thunder storm, fire shield, fire bolt, owl's eye, etc. (And Otyughs) They might be a touch too effective, but overall they're pretty good from what I've seen. Certainly not one of the worst offenders for balance atm.

[Incrue]

This game must be good as hell, many of you guys are registering only to talk about it

[DarkGate]

Haha yeah aether deck is hard to play against Otyugh, I usually summon bulk dragons against them or lightning them to lower their defense. It's also tricky vs. time decks, they usually can reverse time 2 dragons i put up.

I also think you need to decrease the effectiveness of nova decks AND even aether decks, let's not kid ourselves, its the most prominent deck-types :P I think momentum should get through all shields to be worth it, INCLUDING dimensional shields which are most prominent.


Some ideas for decks I think need improvements:
Entropy:
-make a creature that can either attack x1, x2, x3, x4 randomly every turn
-Chaos seed could be an all-monster effect but upped to 4 entropys (either all enemy monsters or EVEN all monsters on field, that would be insane)
Death:
-make skeletons unable to be killed (sincetheyre already dead), one rain of fire or thunderstorm (or most shields can do -1 damage) can can demolish a whole strategy lol
-or make skeletons able to die, but another skeleton replaced (although I can see otyughs combo with this)
Earth: (don't see much earth decks, imo its not strong enough)
-Antilon should be able to burrow, but not only target itself but other creatures (burrow enemy creatures to half its attack damage but make it invulnerable)

Myabe aether decks could be nerfed a bit, but nowhere near as much as nova decks need to be. I like the ideas for entropy , but instead of changing chaos seed instead make a whole new card. Another idea for entropy is to make a mutation that affects all the creatures on either side of the field. This would help make the boneyard combo very viable because you might end up with some very nice monsters or at the very least some more skeletons. I also think it would be a good idea to let a new skeleton be formed form boneyard even if the original skeleton was summoned with a boneyard anyways. Earth really needs a couple of good spells/monsters/moster effects so that it can really be viable as a deck type because the only thing it really has going for it is the graboids and a decent shield.

[DarkGate]

This game must be good as hell, many of you guys are registering only to talk about it

It is amazing really. It has some balance issues, but what game doesn't when it comes out in Beta testing. I used to be addicted to Yu Gi Oh a long time ago and this brings me back to those days. I've found myself trying to figure out where my summer afternoon has gone before.

[Disaru]

The quests should involve bountys, like giving a random name and if you happen to face them and beat them in PVP, you get a really good reward (maybe a rare card of theirs)

i also think there should be like 2 slots for weapons or even shields (of course not additive effects, like 2 darkness shields = 100% miss)