The NHS & the United States of America

[Loyal Rogue]

Depending on who's doing the defining, the term can mean anything from a person who doesn't believe we know the whole truth behind 9/11 yet to an extreme conspiracy nut that believes our own government planned the whole thing.

I am certainly in the former.

[gerbick]

I'm definitely a conspiracy theorists then. I think that Godzilla and King Kong had this planned since they've both been in movies that destroyed buildings...

Think about it. Hmm...

[FlashLackey]

Investigative journalism.

Fixed.

A document is not a type of reporting.

A second-hand rendered document proves nothing more than any other unsubstantiated claim.

I'm a truther.

Now. What does it mean?

It is a term used to refer to the various groups that theorize that the US deliberately caused 9/11, blew up the trade towers with explosives, etc.

[Loyal Rogue]

Speaking of truth...

Why does it seem that all these protesters and politicians against the healthcare reform can't use any truth in their arguments?
If their position is valid in any way then why do they have to rely on all the lies and scare tactics?

I'm sorry, but if you have to lie to make your point then you obviously don't have one.


</ attempt to put thread back on the tracks.>

[TallGuyLittleCar]

Speaking of truth...

Why does it seem that all these protesters and politicians against the healthcare reform can't use any truth in their arguments?
If their position is valid in any way then why do they have to rely on all the lies and scare tactics?

I'm sorry, but if you have to lie to make your point then you obviously don't have one.

you need to fight fire with fire!

[gerbick]

What's up with all of these goddamn labels? birther, truther... stupider.

I truly am starting to hate... damn near everybody.

[silverx2]

I would like to point out that it is discussions like these that cause the common person to have no ****ing clue what the **** is going on in the world.

Your all ****ing twisting everything around, turning what should be a simple this is good this is bad into a ****ing maze of lies, rumors, slander and bull****.

Seriously stop having these ****ing discussions because your doing it wrong.

[TallGuyLittleCar]

What's up with all of these goddamn labels? birther, truther... stupider.

I truly am starting to hate... damn near everybody.

hater!

[flashpipe1]

Talk about hitting the nail on the head...I believe these people say it all...good hard-working Americans who took a day to go to Washington and let the politicians know that an educated public can speak eloquently about the issues that they oppose...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUPMj...embedded#t=547

wait a sec...what was that??

[gerbick]

hater!

Don't make me pray for full engine failure on your Datsun. I'll do it!!!!!1

Silver, I get what you're saying... but let me state it a bit more eloquently.

The problem with this kind of situation in the US is that people tend to forget how to discuss things civilly and take their position is the absolute only available option where there is no room for compromise whatsoever.

Case in point, FlashLackey. I hate to point fingers, but he absolutely believes what he believes, and is quite inflexible. He will not yield, probably sees it as a position or weakness - that's merely speculation - but as far as it goes, has not compelled me to see his point in any regard other than one thing. He will oppose anything and everything that comes down the pipe from this Democrat mostly government and had relative ease accepting what came down from the Republican mostly government these last 12 years years. Sure, he can pinpoint what he didn't like before; but still accepted it.

Or take Loyal Rogue. He's on the opposite side of things. He's more accepting of what the Democrat mostly government is dishing out because it's a whole lot more open and honest than the prior Republican mostly government. He's unwilling to compromise because... well, from his standpoint we've been compromising for the last 12+ years and only a very few people had benefited from the prior government. He's also willing and able to pinpoint what he doesn't like now and before; and does not want to accept the fact that people got worked over, no... they got fleeced over the last decade plus in the name of "government". Mind you, once again I'm speculating and this is merely my opinion.

Both people have merits in their conversation; yet there's no middle ground. Just the same way I have no middle ground with the current surge of people taking to YouTube, Twitter, and these so-called Tea Bag Parties because I disagree with people that compare our president to Hitler. I can't even call those people "human" and sadly enough, the conservatives are warming up to those people for one single reason - they're not stopping it. Same way that I hear an idiot on Fox News tell me that Global Warming isn't an issue... meanwhile the Arctic Circle will be ice-free in my lifetime. And the liberals are pinpointing a few social ills that once magnified are truly problematic - but they're the effects of some other, deeper cause. I would call it taking care of the faulty icing on an even faultier cake. That is a clear indicator that something is wrong.

Yet, denial is strong on both sides unwilling to compromise.

And ultimately, the extremes are ultimately wrong. Public option is frowned upon by conservatives because they... well, they really enjoy smoking cigars (Limbaugh) or drinking (Beck) or money (Madoff). And liberals are for public option because it gives people that don't have a voice or coverage the ability to get it, meanwhile they're equally as avarice and are stuffing their pockets from the insurance lobbyists (Pelosi) and thus are equally at fault imho.

And nobody... nobody will admit to ever being wrong. But as it stands, I no longer truly can say that either side will commit to anything other than more divisive tactics that basically include racism, fear mongering, blanket statements, intolerance and above all, abusive media tactics that are outright full of half-truths and lies that once confronted will only be met with a wonderfully woven web of statements that at the end of the day do not, will not solve one problem other than they have something they don't want to lose and if you have nothing... you will gain nothing.

This system is heading towards a class and race war and people that could stop it, won't. They will build a higher wall around their property, their own beliefs and call it a day.

Enjoy the truth folks. It is what we have now. And to hide behind anything else will be a dismissal of epic proportions. If I'm wrong, I don't mind being wrong... it is what I see currently. Tomorrow might being bring something different; I truly doubt it.

Nothing comes from the inability to compromise.

[flashpipe1]

The problem with this kind of situation in the US is that people tend to forget how to discuss things civilly and take their position is the absolute only available option where there is no room for compromise whatsoever.

You're so right...it's like these people have never been married...or had kids...or parents...

Both people have merits in their conversation; yet there's no middle ground. Just the same way I have no middle ground with the current surge of people taking to YouTube, Twitter, and these so-called Tea Bag Parties because I disagree with people that compare our president to Hitler. I can't even call those people "human" and sadly enough, the conservatives are warming up to those people for one single reason - they're not stopping it.

The people in that video amazed me that they're willing to give up their time to go protest and march with no real understanding of the issues, the facts, and can't even verbalize what they're opposed to.

Nothing comes from the inability to compromise.

Well, at least nothing good...

Obama said some excellent things in his speech that I HOPED would help combat some of the idiotic bi-partisanship that is tearing the country apart and preventing ANY sort of health care change.

[joshstrike]

Just wanted to jump in here. I'm an American who's lived abroad for the past several years. In South America, Southeast Asia, etc. I've always been able to see doctors at private hospitals, when I want, quite cheaply, because much of the cost is subsidized. In New Zealand, I was blown away at the fact that I went to a doctor's office (strep throat), filled out one form, got seen within twenty minutes, and it was completely free. I couldn't believe it.

I'm scared of getting sick here in the US. I have some of the most expensive private coverage money can buy here, and it's still worthless. I had to go to an emergency room (private hospital) here in LA, a couple months ago. I had, it seemed, something lodged in my esophagus. It was not a particularly busy night at the ER. They kept me waiting in pain for six hours. A doctor came in and looked at me for 20 seconds, asked me no questions, wrote a prescription for antibiotics (huh?) and sent me home. The bill from the emergency room was $1900. My insurance company would only cover half of it. Over the next three days I had to go through doctors and eventually get an upper GI and then an endoscopy. The insurance company told me they wouldn't cover anaesthesia. They said it wasn't absolutely necessary to be under anaesthesia, when having a f*cking tube shoved into your stomach. The bill for all that, after the insurance covered part of it, came out to around $6000.

I did the math. For the time it took to get treatment, and the cost, I could have bought a first-class round trip ticket to Thailand, Britain, Cuba, Argentina, New Zealand, or any other country with decent socialized medicine; paid the extra cost for first-rate medical treatment in a private hospital room at; and been back to healthy sooner and cheaper than I was.

And I am a best-case scenario in America; I have insurance that only about 10% of people in this country can afford.

Will one of the republicans please explain to me what about this system is worth saving, or how "DMV care" could possibly be any worse than what we have right now? Because I'm convinced that the only people who are against socializing medicine around here are the insurance companies, and the fools who are dumb enough to believe their fearmongering, lying threats.

[TallGuyLittleCar]

Have not been able to duplicate those errors.

When a friend of mine had something stuck in their throat an ambulance was called. taken to the emergency room. etc etc. bill was about 200 I think. Ambulance arrived within quickly and was seen by a doctor immediately at the hospital.

In a planned visit, the birth of my child was a total of about 16,000 of which I had to pay about 1600.


Now that I think about it.. apart from one person receiving elective surgery I don't personally know anybody that was dissatisfied with their healthcare or health insurance outside of end of life care.

[silverx2]

a lot of it has to do with where you go, and what kind of coverage you have.

A visit in LA will cost more then a visit to the local clinic in a small town. Drugs cost more when the doctor has a million dollar mortgage to pay

[joshstrike]

bill was about 200 I think. Ambulance arrived within quickly and was seen by a doctor immediately at the hospital.

In a planned visit, the birth of my child was a total of about 16,000 of which I had to pay about 1600.

Wow. I don't know where you live, but that's pretty cheap.

Not as cheap as, for example, the completely free, modern care in New Zealand; but definitely cheap by US standards.

[Loyal Rogue]

Now that I think about it.. apart from one person receiving elective surgery I don't personally know anybody that was dissatisfied with their healthcare or health insurance outside of end of life care.

Really?!?
You don't know anyone who's claim has been denied or given the runaround by their insurance company???
Considering that "for profit" private health insurance companies make their profit on denying claims and have entire divisions of doctors and lawyers who's only duty is to find any reason to deny or defend against the payment of claims, or as they call them "medical losses", I find that amazing.

[TallGuyLittleCar]

Really?!?
You don't know anyone who's claim has been denied or given the runaround by their insurance company???

Outside of end of life care just one person.. and that was for elective surgery.
What has your experience been?

Considering that "for profit" private health insurance companies make their profit on denying claims and have entire divisions of doctors and lawyers who's only duty is to find any reason to deny or defend against the payment of claims, or as they call them "medical losses", I find that amazing.

For the majority of the time that isn't true.

There are some health insurance companies that do indeed make that a practice, but that is not the bulk of their profit.. that is greed asking for icing on the cake. Insurance companies are actually investment banks by and large, however they are required to have a greater percentage of "hard assets" on hand, hence their very large buildings.

I know you won't believe this though.

[TallGuyLittleCar]

Wow. I don't know where you live, but that's pretty cheap.

Virginia. Every state has different insurance regulations, which causes prices to vary.

Experience at the actual hospital varies depending on its usual clients.

Not as cheap as, for example, the completely free, modern care in New Zealand; but definitely cheap by US standards.

True.. but the U.S. isn't New Zealand.

[silverx2]

ok lets go point by point every just say if they good or bad, nothing else no twisting of words

1.) if you currently have health insruance nothing will change you can keep doing what your doing

good or bad?

2.)If you dont currently have health insurance you will be required to do so by law

good or bad?

3.)If you are a buisness owner you will be required to offer your employees health insurance(there will be tax credits for businesses that have a profit margin less then $400k)

good or bad?

4.) If you have a pre-existing condition that will not prevent you from getting health insurance.

good or bad?

5.) People without health insurance will be able to go to a place that will list all the different companies and options, which will allow you to get the lowest price for the coverage you need, due to the health companies competing directly with each other

good or bad?

6.)Cutting of the bull**** spending in medicare will result in better coverage for seniors

good or bad?

7.)this wont go into effect unless it is self suficiant and we are sure it wont raise the national deficiate

good or bad?

My personal answers are in bold

[Loyal Rogue]

What has your experience been?

My personal experience has been mixed depending on the insurance company I had at the time.
Cigna sucked.
Currently I'm with Avmed and so far I'm happy... but... I haven't had any major surgery or made any large claims with them so I haven't had to fight with them over anything yet.
(I don't know if we're including dental insurance in this, but the wife just got denied for a procedure which she needs as a result of a botched procedure she just had, so we are going to have to come up with $5000 to pay for it ourselves.)

More than half of the people I know with health insurance have at least one horror story, and one of our closest friends is in a major panic right now because the husband has AIDS and liver problems, their insurance provider was changed on them and the new provider, Molina, is basically denying all prescriptions and treatments that were covered under their old plan.

On the whole I'd say it's about a 60/40 split between bad/good experiences of those we know, including ourselves.