'Adobe is lazy' says Steve Jobs

[scheletro]

yeap, sorry, I know both are PC, but some people hear or read PC and they think in windows

[tomsamson]

I wonder how this will turn out: http://pinchzoom.com/blog/items/view...lity-layerquot
and what if anything Adobe says to that when they announce CS5 on Monday.

[redjag]

Sounds like that would cover Unity iPhone too, wouldn't it?

[mcnugget]

%$#& Apple.

[dandylion13]

“Applications that link to Documented APIs through an intermediary translation or compatibility layer or tool are prohibited.” - Apple’s new iPhone 4 Agreement, Section 3.3.1 could mean Apple will ban apps made with Adobe’s Flash-to-iPhone compiler, Titanium, and PhoneGap"

Yes, there was speculation about this months ago when the CS5 -> iPhone feature was first announced. Even under current agreements it's probably "illegal".

[tomsamson]

Yes, various middleware solutions seem to get the kick out there, i wonder if Apple will change its mind on that one, since a lot of that middleware is used to create many of the most selling apps on the store.
I imagine what they actually want is block out technologies that don´t go the xcode way, so if they change that point to something like only solutions are allowed which produce an xcode project at the end then lots of middleware would still be fine, let´s see.
For flash it looks bad in either case.

[Incrue]

How the heck can they know where or how i made my code?
What difference does it makes if i use notepad to do the same code that unity or flash would do?

[Incrue]

has now been expanded to include prohibitions on developing iPhone apps in other languages or in other development environments that are then translated or cross-compiled into native iPhone apps.

http://www.appleinsider.com/articles...mono_apps.html

Seems Apple wants to kick adobe's ass but the way they do it will also afect unity's games

I wonder whats next.Maybe only allow games made when the programmer is using the amazing Apple's chairs?

[Sietjp]

techcrunch is also talking about it : http://techcrunch.com/2010/04/08/adobe-flash-apple-sdk/

It seems that Apple has declared war to Adobe.

Well the new developer agreemnt is really obscure. What do we call "a translation or compatibility layer" ? In the end it's an iPhone binary and that's all. So now Apple want to control the way we code ? Why couldn't I develop a layer/library to help me produce iPhone apps quicker ? That's non sense .

[tomsamson]

to Incrue:
Apple can pretty easily see whether Flash CS5 was used to create an app as the resulting app has an a good bit different setup than what a usual xcode made app looks like internally. During approval process for apps they already use a system that detects whether an app uses private apis etc so they can also check for this the same way.

Regarding the topic in general more recent updates on various outlets indicate that its probably really mostly about blocking app creation ways which don´t create an xcode project at the end though no one is sure at this point of course and since its a beta OS version agreement clause most seem to expect it will be clarified and updated before the release version hits.

[tomsamson]

to Sietjp: Initially i was totally on your train of thought, too, i thought it was crazy business that it would be controlled which languages and tools one uses to develop for a particular device.
Having thought about it, i still don´t like the thought, but i realized, hey, its actually not something that unusual, its made by all sorts or companies creating all sorts of devices.
Like most things ranging from zune to home consoles actually.
Still, even if its actually common practice for many other device types its sad to see such things spreaded.
And yes, i totally agree, its hard not to see this as direct slap against Adobe since it would be crazy chance that its pure coincidence that that thing gets out 4 days before Adobe announces the release of its CS5 of which for flash the main big feature is deploying iphone apps..

[Incrue]

So now Apple want to control the way we code ? Why couldn't I develop a layer/library to help me produce iPhone apps quicker ? That's non sense .

definately

[Incrue]

Tom, if thats what they want then you know this will affect stuntman bob too, dont you?

[tomsamson]

Yeah, for the developerbase its of course great when we can use any language/ middleware we´re most comfortable with.
On the other side i can imagine why Apple doesn´t like that (and again, i´m not happy with that clause by Apple, i´m just trying to understand their reasoning) :
Some things made with some technologies are probably more difficult/ time consuming to test and approve for Apple, next to other downsides that could potentially occur like an app made with a different language/ middleware maybe performing way worse and that way leading to more device or app freezes/crashes or the batteries draining much quicker when the cpu or gpu is getting constantly hammered in non performance savey/ optimized way.
Then there´s also the side that of course it has a big benefit for Apple that the officially endorsed ways to create iPhone/ iPod touch /iPad apps all are centered around using a mac as development platform.
Its of course way less nice for them financially when someone doesn´t need a mac to create apps for these devices.

For the actual end consumer of apps i´m not sure whether its a good or bad thing, being able to create apps quicker and roll out cross platform apps on the devices quicker, too sure also leads to a bigger amount of shovelware but at the same time it also means a larger selection of good apps in shorter timespan.

Well, no matter from which side one tackles it, its a tricky fishy topic and definately requires an update and clarification from Apple´s side.

[flashisland]

And yes, i totally agree, its hard not to see this as direct slap against Adobe since it would be crazy chance that its pure coincidence that that thing gets out 4 days before Adobe announces the release of its CS5 of which for flash the main big feature is deploying iphone apps..

As much as this sucks for Adobe, hopefully it will teach them a lesson to focus on making Flash better/faster/more features rather than worrying about the iPhone/iPad. I'm so sick of them pushing poor products out each product cycle.

[tomwood]

One of the commenters over at Boing Boing said they thought that Adobe would eventually create a development tool for HTML5 that would make all this moot anyway. Is something like that in development? Flash is perfect for what I do and I really don't want to have to republish in another format just for the iPad now. But if there was a program like Flash that output the same user experience in HTML5 that would be okay. I'd buy that.

[dandylion13]

As much as this sucks for Adobe, hopefully it will teach them a lesson to focus on making Flash better/faster/more features rather than worrying about the iPhone/iPad. I'm so sick of them pushing poor products out each product cycle.

I'm totally with you there.
Why is Adobe they spending so much time and effort trying to play catch-up with Apple and promoting its (a competitor's) product as a major feature of CS5?
It almost seems like Adobe doesn't believe in Flash anymore either.
It's really amazing how little work they've done to improve the Player over the last decade.
The player should be be 100 times faster and 100 leaner by now, and run on a device as small as a digital watch.

Oh, it's fun to rant! What a fun thread!

[dandylion13]

But if there was a program like Flash that output the same user experience in HTML5 that would be okay. I'd buy that.

I haven't used Fireworks in years, but when I first started using it, that was one of its advertised features. You could design the layout of the website and it would automatically create the HTML and JavaScript for you. (HTML 5 is just another incarnation of HTML+JavaScript.) It handled all the interactivity automatically. Dreamweaver did the same, but was a bit more code-y.

The only problem was, the code that these applications output was terrible. Nobody outside of design schools ever used it because it was really slow and impossible to debug or extend. Maybe this is still a feature of Fireworks? I have no idea. But if someone manages to really do this right, it could go somewhere.

Like the same way that Catalyst creates interactive SWFs without having to look at any code. For basic interactivity, it's great.

But I think that ultimately if you want to work in "HTML 5" you're going to have to learn JavaScript. There's not real substitute for getting your hands dirty with real code. Sadly, Javascript is like coding in AS1.0... I will never go back there!

Also, I think that having one tool to publish to all platforms is unrealistic. It's a great idea, but will never happen. There's just too much competition and the companies that could make these tools (like Adobe) have very short attention spans.

I think we'll just have to resign ourselves to learning a handful of technologies (AS3.0, Objective C, JavaScript, C++) and choose the best one for the job. Or, just specialise in one, and live with the limitations.

That's not so bad. There's still plenty of work for COBOL programmers

[scheletro]

I agree there are too much work to do on web and we are worring about just one device, but I wonder.... can we load our flash app without passing trough Itunes store? maybe make apps for some direct clients?

I think apple won this one and i wont fight more, i hope CS5 have more great features and not only ipod apps, by this time they could have a great developing tool and is still a baby

They should work on speed and stability on any device and flash alone will make his road again

[dVyper]

"It's really amazing how little work they've done to improve the Player over the last decade."

Indeed - Flash 10 clearly is not much better than Flash 5...