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Thread: 'Adobe is lazy' says Steve Jobs

  1. #1
    Custom User Title Incrue's Avatar
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    'Adobe is lazy' says Steve Jobs

    http://www.wired.com/epicenter/2010/...es-steve-jobs/

    Apple does not support Flash because it is so buggy,
    No one will be using Flash, he says. The world is moving to HTML5.
    funny

  2. #2
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    No, it's not so funny.

    This makes for grim reading:

    http://daringfireball.net/2010/01/blue_boxes

    This too:

    http://daringfireball.net/2010/01/apple_adobe_flash

    Hopefully this will be a wake up call for Adobe.

  3. #3
    Pumpkin Carving 2008 ImprisonedPride's Avatar
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    **** Apple. <3 Flash. Period.

    http://www.****youapple.com (Use your imagination here, folks.)
    Last edited by ImprisonedPride; 01-31-2010 at 09:11 PM.
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    Senior Member flashisland's Avatar
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    Those are some interesting articles. I agree that Flash is over-used for many things that should be done with HTML/JavaScript, however I don't think that Flash is going anywhere when it comes to games. You're not going to program a game in HTML 5, and if you would you leave all your assets and code exposed to be easily stolen. In addition there would be no easy way to distribute game packages as with .swf files. Anyone who thinks Flash is going to die doesn't realize the mass amounts of money involved with online games.

    I think it's clear that Apple only hates Flash because it threatens their cut of money from the app store. However it has created a really nice revenue stream for game developers. You get people paying money for games that you'd never get them to pay for if it was on a website.

  5. #5
    Pumpkin Carving 2008 ImprisonedPride's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flashisland View Post
    You get people paying money for games that you'd never get them to pay for if it was on a website.
    Quote Originally Posted by www.****iphone.com
    If they stamped an Apple logo on a steaming mound of dog ****, I bet all of you iPhone lovers would buy it.
    More money for the rest of us. Apple's just afraid to do business with a company that's better than they are.
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    Flash has never worked as well on Macs as it has on Windows. None of my PCs, desktop laptop have crashed due to flash or anything else since I moved to XP and that was years ago. Some apps will crash occasionally ( Photoshop usually more than any other, but still rare ) but they will not take the entire Windows with them.

    This is obviously an Apple problem. They use garbage browser ( safari ) and almost garbage OS ( any Apple OS ). Don't want to get into the whole discussion all over again, but Apple's OS has always been child like ( ask Carmack about game development on any Apple OS in the past ) compared to Windows and the only reason people still think it is any good is because Steve Jobs keeps lying and repeating those lies over and over and over again and we all know to a lot of people if you repeat it enough times then it must be true.

    They have same issues with iTunes and Quicktime which cause a crapload of problems with every upgrade, far more than flash on a mac ever could. Not only will they crash, but will render your 3D and video apps unusable ( well documented ). It's a ^%#$% farce.

    Unfortunately we don't know how the market will move, and Apple has enough money to keep lying and marketing its crap ( some of their stuff is OK ) to increasingly more retarded population, but I hope that we as developers don't have to take that step backwards into the dark ages of game development which is exactly what iPhone and Apple's app store are. Fine if somebody wants that, but what I'm saying is, I hope gaming one the go does not become the norm and replaces what we have right now as far as casual gaming goes.

    I'm hoping we'll move forward and making games to be played on a ****ty post-it size screen is not that.
    Last edited by MikeMD; 02-01-2010 at 03:19 AM.

  7. #7
    Hype over content... Squize's Avatar
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    What a stunningly anti-Apple thread.

    Is it maybe just possible that Adobe can't get Flash running at a decent speed on any of the iDevices ?
    Could it be that it sucks the battery big time, so end users will think it's browsing that drains their battery rather than the Flash ads ?
    Possibly it's that Flash can suck up a lot of memory with badly coded swf's that could again crash Safari ?

    Adobe's response to the lack of a Flash player on the iPad has just been petulant and not something you'd expect from such a big company.
    Instead of saying we can't view Disney or Miniclip ( Who really need the traffic, I mean they're only just getting by on their ad revenue and paid placements, how are they going to cope with all those disgruntled iPad owners ? ) because Apple won't support the Flash Player, how about Adobe show us a video clip of the Flash Player running on an iPhone ?
    Instead of showing that we can't go to a certain pron site ( Tehehe they're so down with the teen boys ) how about showing the Flash Player in action, running well with a low memory overhead ?

    Taking games as an example, how many games are going to run straight out of the box on an iPad ? Mouse controlled only ones, and that's it.
    So it's not as if we're being hard done by, a large percentage of games just won't work.
    Then how many games will sit nicely on the screen ? Has anyone designed a Flash game specifically for the iPad screen ?

    As to the revenue streams. I'd rather take my chances in the appStore and get my 70% than have a game sitting on a site where the ads surrounding it make more money than the game makes me.

    "Apple's just afraid to do business with a company that's better than they are. "

    lol, yeah, Apple must look at Adobe and just go green.

    Aside from games, how many people here visit Flash only web sites ? How many Flash only web sites are actually worth visiting ?
    youTube is adding html5 support, and the iDevices can handle youTube video without Flash anyway.

    If Flash could run as quickly as it does on my desktop, and not suck up all the memory or affect the possible multi-tasking in OS4 then great yeah, it should def be on there.
    If it can't do all these things then I think Apple is right not to include it until it can.

    Squize.

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    It's anti Apple because Apple deserves it. Current version of quicktime renders some NLE video editors unusable. With crap like that you have no right to complain about a few crashes here and there that may or may not be caused by flash.

    Apple is very well known for stuff like this. With almost every upgrade to quicktime , iTunes or OS you will find problems which are simply unforgivable. They just don't care. Now, who cares about iTunes, but quicktime is sort of a video standard just like flash is a standard for web animation and a lot of NLE apps and 3D apps depend on it, so to continuously release updates, year after year, that break these programs is ridiculous.

    It may be true that Adobe was unable to get flash to run fast enough on macs, they have always been slower, but iD software and others couldn't get their games to run as fast as on windows for years either . And that's because Apples great OS is actually bad under the hood. They got better once they moved to intel chips and OSX came out, but historically they have been pretty bad. That "Mac OS is so great" line has always been crap and just another lie like everything coming from Jobs.


    Possibly it's that Flash can suck up a lot of memory with badly coded swf's that could again crash Safari
    Well again, is it flash or is it mac OS/safari causing the problem.

    I have no problem with flash on any PC IE or Firefox, so logic would say it's not flash, it's Mac/Safari itself. And if other phones have no problems with flash then again logic dictates, it's Apple and the iPhone who can't get it right ( or are just petty little bastards who want to get back at Adobe for discontinuing some apps for macs 5-6 years ago ).

    As for games on iPhone and iPad, I don't really care and what I was saying in the post above is that I hope I never have to care. I'm not looking forward to coding anything for any screen that size and especially not looking forward to dealing with Apple in any way whatsoever.

    I'd rather take my chances in the appStore and get my 70% than have a game sitting on a site where the ads surrounding it make more money than the game makes me
    I understand what you are saying there , but you still need to be pretty lucky to have that 70% actually be more than 70% of practically nothing.
    Last edited by MikeMD; 02-01-2010 at 01:37 PM.

  9. #9
    Hype over content... Squize's Avatar
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    Sorry, by Safari I meant on the iPhone/Pod/Pad, not the desktop one, Flash flies along for me on my mac book pro.

    I don't think Apple can be blamed if 3rd party code doesn't run well on their machine ( By that I mean Flash, in terms of gaming on the desktop then yeah they're still away behind PC's ).

    As to Flash running on other mobiles, is the new full as3 Flash mobile out yet ? To be honest I don't follow these things as they don't interest me. If so, what speed is it running at ?

    I think Adobe have got a get out of free jail card here. I really think the only reason Flash isn't available on the iThings is 'cause it's not running well enough on them yet. So rather than Adobe be in a position where everyone will be bitc'hing about performance, they can spin it that Apple are blocking them, with Steve Jobs obviously rising to the bait.

    Squize.

    PS. I've not ignored your comments about QuickTime, I don't know any better so it's pointless me commenting about it just for the sake of it. I'm not an Apple fan boy, it's not my place to defend them, but neither am I an Adobe fan boy either.
    I don't see the lack of Flash support on Apple's portable devices as some big usability snub, and I'm surprised that
    a) So many people do
    b) So many people are asking if it's the death of Flash, which is just insane.

  10. #10
    When you know are. Son of Bryce's Avatar
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    I really don't want to turn this into some flamebait thread, but it sounds like MikeMD has never used a Mac in his life. Apple's software isn't perfect, as if any company's software is.

    But when you consider the alternative which is Microsoft, which is known for "Blue-screen of death" in its operating systems what you're saying is ridiculous. And saying Safari is crap when Internet Explorer has a reputation for being full of security holes and not following web standards. I really feel like "What point are you trying to make?"

    Anyway...

    It's pretty obvious why Apple and Adobe haven't resolved their differences. And I never expect Flash to be on iPhone or iPad. HTML 5 can do every web related thing Flash does, in a couple years it probly won't make much difference.

  11. #11
    Wait- what now? tidenburg's Avatar
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    Sorry Son of Bryce but the only people who think BSoD is a common issue on windows are complete mac-whores. I've never had blue screen of death and I've been using various pc's for most of my life.

    Apple just want control over what users have on their devices - everything has to be approved by them. Allowing flash on the internet would take away from their app store purchases and so Flash will obviously never come to the devices.
    "I'd only told them the truth. Was that so selfish? Our integrity sells for so little, but it is all we really have. It is the very last inch of us, but within that inch, we are free."

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    To be honest I don't follow these things as they don't interest me. If so, what speed is it running at ?
    I don't really follow them either but seems that for basic flash stuff it works fine, so it wouldn't really hurt the iPhone. I'm pretty sure iThings don't support flash because of some petty little plan concocted by Steve and nothing else.

    If Apple really cared about quality and omitting flash because of poor performance, how about including a decent pair of headphones with every iPod instead of the crap they give you. It's supposed to be a music player and that's not music coming from those earbuds. I think that is a bigger issue than losing an hour of battery time just because you decided to support flash. iPhone crashes frequently Apple is aware of the problem and Apple still doesn't know how to fix it so they do just fine in crash department without flash.

    But when you consider the alternative which is Microsoft, which is known for "Blue-screen of death" in its operating systems what you're saying is ridiculous.
    Since windows 2000 I've had practically zero crashes on any PC and since 2000 that's probably 8-10 machines, laptops and desktops. On the other hand there are many people whose $3000 - $5000 3D and video editing apps stopped working more than once because Apple doesn't test quicktime and iTunes updates. I'm not a fanboy of Apple, Microsoft or Adobe, but Apple is by far the worst in its disregard for everybody and just the incredible amount of bull$hit and lies told over the years.


    And saying Safari is crap when Internet Explorer has a reputation for being full of security holes and not following web standards
    You may try to google that hacking conference where 2 years in a row OSX was the easiest operating system to hack ( it took less than a minute
    ) and it was precisely through security holes in Safari.
    Last edited by MikeMD; 02-01-2010 at 02:08 PM.

  13. #13
    Senior Member flashisland's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Son of Bryce View Post
    HTML 5 can do every web related thing Flash does, in a couple years it probly won't make much difference.
    I think the one thing HTML 5 can't do is provide some sort of code security. All your code and assets would be free for the taking for anyone who views the page source. Flash isn't much better with decompilers but at least it makes it a bit more difficult if you add in obsfucation. The other thing HTML 5 can't provide is an easy way to distribute a project, such as the .swf file for a game. You'd have to distribute all the HTML 5, javascript, sounds, graphics, etc instead of one nice compact file. I agree that HTML 5 will replace many flash uses, but Flash will still be used in games for years to come.

  14. #14
    Yes we can tomsamson's Avatar
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    I said it in some of those blog posts already, and as you may know i also (VERY OFTEN) tried to convince Adobe to do some propper actions.
    Sadly Adobe often doesn´t listen to others than those praising them.

    No matter what the actual reasons are for Apple bigwigs saying things like that, the reasons they state for blocking flash are absolutely true valid complaints.

    Flash´s performance sucks compared to other technologies, it sucks even more on mac than on pc and it sucks even more the lower end hardware it runs on, so all mobile platforms.

    Even as flash developer i find it absolutely great that there is no flash in the browser on iPhone because that guarantees a much smoother surfing experience.

    I´m convinced that if Adobe doesn´t deliver a surprisingly good release this time the flash usage on the web other than for ad and game content will go massively down in the next few years and on the mobile market if it doesn´t perform as people want on the platforms it runs on more and more people will agree to what Apple says and turn off flash.


    I personally think Adobe had many years to listen to the majority of its userbase and now step by step they are getting the bill for not doing so.

  15. #15
    Hype over content... Squize's Avatar
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    "Apple just want control over what users have on their devices - everything has to be approved by them."

    Hang on, I'm just going to turn on my 360. My 360 that Microsoft have complete control over the content.
    Then I'm going to boot up my psp, funnily enough Sony have quite a lot of say about what I can and can't use on that too.
    How about the Wii ? That's got a browser and what, FP7 support ? So in terms of Flash support, it's totally useless. Aside from browsing, I have no control over what goes on there either.

    But somehow Apple are the worst of the lot ? On an Apple desktop I expect to put on there what I want, and I can. On an Apple phone, or mp3 player or eBook reader I don't. I understand they're closed systems, like my 360 or my PSP.

    "Allowing flash on the internet would take away from their app store purchases and so Flash will obviously never come to the devices. "

    I read this all the time, and it doesn't make any sense if you're a developer.

    Let's say Flash comes out for Apple's portables tomorrow, what does that mean to you as a developer ? Will your sponsorship money go up ? No.
    Will your ad revenue increase ? Yep, although the eCPM won't.

    What ever you earn with ads in your game, the portal the game is sitting on is more. Why would you want to empower the portals above developers ?

    Doesn't it make more sense to you as a developer to get 70% of all sales of your game rather than making someone else more money than you ?
    And like I said in my earlier post, not all Flash games are going to work, so it's not like this wonderful world of free gaming is suddenly going to burst forth and crush the nasty ol' appStore.

    Who in their right mind is going to make a normal swf designed for running in an iPhone browser ? It's not going to happen.

    @Mike, yeah it's ironic that the iPod's worst feature is music playback.

    Squize.

  16. #16
    Yes we can tomsamson's Avatar
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    as Squize said, adding some more to that: regarding the argument that fash running in the browser would negatively impact the app store sales: Flash is a ressource hog on a highend pc.
    Don´t be illusionary and think it would run great on a device that has way, way less ram and a way slower cpu and in comparison not that powerful gpu.
    The iPhone, iPod touch and iPad can run very involved 2d and 3d games, but that´s when those games are made in technologies that make use of the hardware in propper way, not like with flash where it doesn´t make propper use of the gpu at all, uses up way too much cpu instead and then due to catastrophic conceptual problems also uses huge amounts of ram compared to other technologies (performance "gain solutions" like cacheAsBitmap and cacheAsSurface, i wonder how they don´t get what kind of extremely bad ideas those are).
    So flash running in the browser of mobile devices of today means the content runs exremely bad. No discussion there.
    With their latest player release at best they achieve it that videos run ok without eating too much cpu but that could soon not matter anymore and be too late as more and more of the bigger video portals are switching over to allowing non flash based playback of videos.

    I find it yet another crazily misdirected PR stunt attempt by adobe staff members that now more and more of them are posting blog posts moaning about Apple not allowing flash on the iDevices and letting slip out statements that make it sound like Adobe would oh so be interested in getting the performance and stability up but Apple doesn´t give them a helping hand.

    Seriously guys, you are making fools of yourself with such stunts and just make more people aware of it.

    What about getting proper hardware acceleration for all graphical operations going on the other platforms then if its only Apple blocking you?
    What about using the "old" garbage collector model of pre F9 player again which at least didn´t lead to so much memory leakage and therefore browser crash prone flash content?

    Again, Adobe could ignore guys asking for things like these while there were no better alternatives and it wasn´t so much in public spotlight how bad flash performs, now its looking different.

    Adobe is trying to tell the world their suff is great and where it isn´t great yet they´d work on making it better, but so far after quite a number of years the results haven´t been convincing and i´m not the only longtime developer who feels like they are not listening or not doing the right moves to address the issues.

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    I think there's a bigger issue here that goes far beyond the Adobe vs Apple saga:

    - Nobody wants video for the web to be controlled by one company. Currently, it is. This is as absurd a situation as if one company controlled all the technology behind creating text or creating images. Like those articles I posted mentioned, Flash is the only de-facto web standard which is proprietary. The only logical thing for Apple, Microsoft, Google, and us independent developers to do is encourage and adopt the use of non-proprietary video. Whether that's in assistance with HTML 5 or some other open standard is still open to debate.

    - The huge adoption rate of the Flash player is thanks to video, mostly due to YouTube. That was an opportunity that fell into Adobe's lap, because it had just the right technology at just the right time. If that need disappears, what happens to Flash?

    If video goes, which seems inevitable, here's what's left:

    - Flash Advertising. Nobody likes it. Outside of the pages of this forum (and sometimes in it too!), the web is full of scathing vitriol for Flash, which most ordinary people associate with advertising.

    - Games. Farmville, which is a Flash game, is probably, by revenue, the biggest game of any kind in the world right now.

    - Rich Internet Applications.

    Flash was hugely successful even in the pre-video era, because it filled the vital web-app gap that Java promised and failed to fill. So, on the positive, maybe it can still occupy these non-video niches and still survive?

    On the other hand if there's a web-culture shift to real-apps over web-apps, can Flash compete?

    This is what we currently don't know. One thing we do know is that, from a performance point of view, it absolutely can't. If you line a real app up against a Flash app, Flash is dead-in-the-water. If users decide they want a dedicated app, rather than a Flash web-app, then Flash has no hope.

    RIA might have just have a been a transitional phase between the old web-based internet to the (possibly) new app-based net. There's not the faintest inkling that Adobe sees this as a concern. AIR was a small step in the right direction, but it's currently half-baked and doesn't seem to be going anywhere.

    I'm usually not one for doom-and-gloom, but have to agree with Tomsamson that Adobe needs to radically and aggressively take advantage of it's current market lead if it wants Flash to survive over the long term. This is an extremely competitive and ruthless industry. It eats its young and fortunes can turn on a dime overnight. Adobe has a brief window of opportunity before the tide turns completely against it.

    If I were running Adobe, here's what I'd do:

    - Throw out the current player and IDE, and rebuild them from scratch. We a need lean, fast, indestructible multi-platform monster.

    - Give away the IDE, build free, easy to use development tools, and open up all or most of the source code. Make Flash a real, open standard.

    - Beg, coerce, bribe, threaten and plead with all the major players like Google, Microsoft and Apple to adopt and integrate the technology. This is sleazy business, but who cares - Adobe, play the game! Cut deals and make it worth their while.

    - Oh yeah... listen to your customers... us!!!!

    Perhaps Adobe is in denial, but those blue lego blocks on the iPad demo were just about the worst press Adobe has had in years. CEOs of those companies whose web pages were featured will be asking, "Why didn't our website work?". You can trust that the developers who built those sites are not going to write them an essay about the intricacies of Adobe-Apple politics, they'll just answer with one word: "Flash". The reply: "Fix it."

    This is going to ripple through the industry whether we like it or not.

    .... Oh man, I hate reading long posts like this... sorry guys!!

  18. #18
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    Bottom line; it's Apple's fault.

    How is it Adobe's fault that Apple cannot build a $500 - $1000 iPad that doesn't choke on flash ( if that's the case for not including it ).

    I was making full flash sites that ran fine over 12 years ago on some 400mhz PC and of course macs of that era, which Steve kept telling me were 5 times faster than any PC, were the only machines choking on it, was it Adobe's fault then too, or was it Macromedia's fault )

    Smart people would spend money on a laptop and ignore iPad.

    Adobe needs to fix a few things, I agree, but Steve shouldn't even be talking or be seen out of an orange jump suit if responsible people actually enforced false advertising laws.

    Doesn't it make more sense to you as a developer to get 70% of all sales of your game rather than making someone else more money than you ?
    Absolutely, but you are basically paying to be seen ( by giving it away to portals ). How are you going to do that with Apple's store? You probably have to make a flash version of your iPhone game and again give it away to as many portals as possible, and in that game have a link to buy the iPhone version. Otherwise for most developers it's a waste of time and money. You are not going to make anything by just developing a game and getting it into the store.

    Nobody wants video for the web to be controlled by one company
    That's exactly what Steve Jobs wants. He' still pissed Flash killed off quicktime as a web standard. He may be talking html5, but he's thinking other things. He wants to control the way you watch video and that would be far worse than what we have right now.
    Last edited by MikeMD; 02-01-2010 at 10:42 PM.

  19. #19
    Yes we can tomsamson's Avatar
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    Yes, its Apple´s fault. Apple forces Adobe to deliver propperly. Excellent.
    If it´ll work out or not will be seen, but yeah, its time for it.

    Both Apple and Adobe push for their proprietary stuff under their control to some extend, so hard to tell who is more or less evil if at all.
    Regarding which is the better business model, licensing a game to some game portal on web release or selling it on the app store can´t be easily answered, both have quite different upsides and downsides and for both there are many success and many failure stories to be told.
    You´re right when you say Adobe has to fix a few things; the problem is many think they are not progressing enough or in the right direction on several of those things now for many years, meanwhile contender technologies and platforms are evolving during all that time flash developers are still waiting and hoping.
    Apple´s bold move now and followed statements just accelerate the movement massively that more and more of the traditional use cases for flash were getting grabbed by other technologies with time.

    Regarding the performance side of flash, man, as usual, why are you arguing things like these?
    I mean you´ve been here all these years, too, no?
    The flash developer base has been asking for better performance at least since flash player 4 or 5. Macromedia/Adobe has constantly made the player/compiler/interpreter stricter and added things like cacheAsSurface instead of working on what more and more asked for all those years ago which was propper hardware acceleration for all graphical operations.
    Yes, we made flash content for in comparison to nowadays standards super slow machines, i remember i made my first flash stuff for a pentium 133 and then pentium 200 boxes. I think it had 32 mb ram if i remember right
    But that was also less complex stuff than the typical flash stuff of nowadays.
    And all those years it was always the case that flash hasn´t performesd as well as other tech that made propper use of the hardware. It ran best on PC, Windows in IE for a long while, worse on mac and even way worse on Linux and mobiles.
    Its no mac specific thing at all that flash doesn´t use the hardware as it should and that way leads to way too high system requirements.
    And its also no mac specific thing that flash ran best on a single setup on a single OS, not coincidiently the most widespread OS/browser combo Macromedia then also put most effort into.
    If today you have tried flash content in the browser of any mobile device you´d see that it runs really badly and makes the browser way more crash prone and overall just way less responsive, again, its no apple or mac specific thing at all.
    Adobe could on its own end do many things to improve performance and stability without requiring help from apple or others´, they just chose not to.

    One can like or dislike Apple for its bold moves and statements, i like it that there´s finally someone with important enough voice saying things like that so Adobe has to finally get going properly to not let the flash player slip into the real player category with time.
    Whether its the best or worst thing that happened to flash depends on what Adobe makes out of it in the next few months.
    Last edited by tomsamson; 02-02-2010 at 12:52 AM.

  20. #20
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    iPad costs from $500 - $1000. It's absolutely Apple's fault if at that price they can't develop hardware that can run flash at acceptable speed.

    Games have gotten more complex, but there is nothing more demanding in an all flash site today than it was back in 1998 on some 400mhz machine. It's all still very basic animation.

    More speed is always good, but I have no problems with any of my games running at whatever speed I choose, even on my testing 3+ year old laptop.
    If it does run slower on some machines it's because they are loaded with crap that slows them down and sometimes it's Windows vista that is to blame just like Mac OSX is to blame on the other side. This can easily be confirmed by running same games on same spec hardware ( even apple uses same hardware ) and different OS. I've done it and haven't seen any problems whatsoever on XP + any browser, I do see it on Vista and I've seen it on macs.

    Its no mac specific thing at all that flash doesn´t use the hardware as it should and that way leads to way too high system requirements.
    Yes it always has been a mac specific thing. Hardware may be the same today, but it's always been the Apple's OS problem not the hardware. If you don't believe me believe somebody like Carmack / iD Software. I don't know how many issues they have fixed with OSX and don't really care ( maybe it's all good now ) , but historically MAC OSs have been the problem.

    Anyway, you may have a point with phones, but there is no excuse for not being able to run flash on something like the iPad.
    Last edited by MikeMD; 02-02-2010 at 01:52 AM.

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