ycombinator: It chaps my hide.

[hanratty21]

I dont know. Just seems to me that them dictating the terms on which they'll provide their own $18,000 to someone else doesn't really seem all that preposterous to me.

[joshstrike]

Okay, what if the investment they were offering was only $1000? What if it was $50? At what amount of investment, to you, would an investor's application process that included demands beyond simple equity start to seem presumptuous and insulting?

[jAQUAN]

Angel investors have a say what you do with their money. It's the nature of the beast. Again, if you're of the "american idol" mind-set, ie. ignorant, no peripheral vision and like smoke being blown up your ass, you'd think it was a huge compliment.

Ideally, vulture capital wouldn't exist, but the reality is it just does. Don't like it? Don't listen.

[joshstrike]

Angel investors have a say what you do with their money. It's the nature of the beast. Again, if you're of the "american idol" mind-set, ie. ignorant, no peripheral vision and like smoke being blown up your ass, you'd think it was a huge compliment.

Ideally, vulture capital wouldn't exist, but the reality is it just does. Don't like it? Don't listen.

Yeah, I know. I just let stuff get to me. I complain too much. I'm irritable. Guilty as charged. Still, "here's 18k, now you're our *****" isn't really what I think of when I hear the term angel investment...

as far as kids wanting to have smoke blown up there, yyyeah. I can see that. I actually wasn't looking at it that way...that they get something out of it besides the money for their business. That makes them pretty unserious business people, doesn't it? If it's all vanity? If so, why would someone want to invest with them? Is it all a big circle jerk? Jesus.

[hanratty21]

Okay, what if the investment they were offering was only $1000? What if it was $50?

If I were in a situation where I needed $50 or $1000, I guess I probably would. The truth of it is that it's NOT 50 or 1000 bucks. It's $18k which is still a fairly significant amount of money in most people's minds. For $18k, they probably 'afford' to shut up and listen for a few months.

Don't like it? Don't listen.

What he said.

[silverx2]

if what your going to make is your dream, and you think it really has potential to be a large money maker, you should be willing to sacrifice in order to see that dream achieved.

having someone give you $18k with the stipulations you mentioned seems like a small price to pay imho.

[joshstrike]

if what your going to make is your dream, and you think it really has potential to be a large money maker, you should be willing to sacrifice in order to see that dream achieved.

I agree. And sacrificing for your project is absolutely essential. On the other hand, sacrificing what you think is great about your project to please an investor is like saying you never had a good idea in the first place.

having someone give you $18k with the stipulations you mentioned seems like a small price to pay imho.

You know, $18k sounds like a nice bit of change if someone says, "here's $18k, go get yourself a first class ticket to Vegas." But how many coders can you hire on $18k without having to let some of them go in three weeks? It's about the cost of a very short regional print campaign or 1/18th of a 30-second spot on monday night football. To tell someone who's put a lot of work into a project that they have to stop working and listen to you for 3 months for your measly $18k is the height of arrogance.

Sure it's their money and they can do whatever they want, I'm just saying I hope they choke on it, and this should not be considered normal or a new standard of what new media investors expect to get for a very small sum.

[hanratty21]

Perhaps the height of arrogance is assuming that you know better than them...

Calling the $18k measly is probably also the height of arrogance. You have no clue how much i-junk these folks have to sift thru to find something even remotely worthy in their eyes. You have no clue what that $18k can mean to someone else. You have no clue their success rate. They may have to shell out thousands of $18,000 checks in order to see even one of their projects see any kind of success. Also, success in the interweb world doesn't mean monetization. Of those remote successes, maybe one becomes actually worth anything.

Are there other avenues for people to go down to see their dream come to life? Sure. Is this one of them? Yes. is it the right one? To you...no. To others, evidently so.

[joshstrike]

This is a gray area question. The gray area is, how much investment entitles an investor to a controlling stake in the enterprise, and the answer depends on what the project is worth. So I agree to some people this seems like a valid option, based on a project worth nothing. That said, I'd like to see those people wake up and take a different path, namely doing the diligence themselves rather than selling out before they start. I know this somehow irritates your sensibilities but I'm not sure exactly why you need to come to the defense of the people who, in this situation, are clearly exploiting other people who are too young / too dumb / too poor to find a better option.

[Edit] @H. Have you ever been in the situation of trying to raise investment for a project you've put years into? There are all kinds of investors. What's weird about the ycomb thing is that you could probably find a better offer on craigslist if you had a decent project... but not with the b.s. veneer of "authentic silicon valley" that they're hawking. So buyer and seller here are engaging in a phony mating ritual. It's a big power-ego-thing. That's what really gets me about it, not the relative buying power, etc.

[hanratty21]

...people who, in this situation, are clearly exploiting other people...

That's the whole point. Throughout this entire thread, you've convinced no one that these people are exploiting anyone...so, no. It's not clear.

[joshstrike]

Ugh. It's like arguing with fox news.
Seriously, just look around that site and read their submission form, and put yourself in the position of a person who's looking for investment -- I mean, someone who has a product that needs capitalization from people willing to extend capital in the expectation of future earnings. Okay, you're in this mental role as someone with a business, you're a whore seeking investment. What's your price? A portion of the equity, obviously. How much more do you want to let yourself be degraded? Maybe for you it's 5¢ more than that. Me, they could offer me fifty million and I wouldn't subject myself to one of their seminars.

[hanratty21]

Why is it that sitting in a room listening to those with (probably) more experience than you (the general you, that is) advise you on how to get your idea past the idea stage WHILE THEY PAY YOU viewed by you as so degrading? Either you are a know-it-all or there's some other underlying issue here. They are setting terms for getting involved with their program. If you don't like the terms, go somewhere else. Period.

It seems to me that this whole thread started b/c you didn't like the fact that they clicked the don't like button or something on your post. To be honest...I wish there was a don't like button on this post. I'd click it too.

[PAlexC]

1.) Ever spent time in Silicon Valley? It's a massive networking opportunity, not just techies; but of good, young, cheap, motivated labor; lawyers; and entrepreneurs. There's a reason they ask you to be out there.

2.) Part of the guidance you get is how to get by on an $18k initial investment. Be cheap, don't hire like crazy, don't buy foosball tables, have a co-founder for legal reasons, don't make it a one man show. Lots of people with ideas, or programmers, don't have a clue as to how to run a small business.

3.) Good luck getting $18k for a startup from a bank or investment firm. Giving up an equity stake to investors is not uncommon, how does that make ycomb any worse than anyone else.

4.) Put down the Ayn Rand.

[jAQUAN]

Well, YComb is not entirely without credibility.
http://techcrunch.com/2010/12/08/bre...llion-in-cash/