A Flash Developer Resource Site

Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 61

Thread: Flash vs. HTML 5

  1. #1
    Senior Member Pazil's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    913

    Flash vs. HTML 5

    Don't know how much has been posted lately on this topic, but I just remember some fears a while back on HTML 5 and what it means for Flash, and how Flash will only remain for game devs.

    http://www.uza.lt/2010/04/29/my-take-html5-vs-flash/

    Some things he might either be exaggerating or just making Flash look good, but all in all I think it's a pretty accurate comparison, and how Flash will still continue to be widely used even for just video playback. (Especially with the upcoming 3d API's!)

    Anyways, thought it might interest some of the guys here!

    P.
    WIP-ZOMBIES

    I love vegetarians! More meat for the rest of us!

  2. #2
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Posts
    264
    As long as html5 has no real way to develop games/apps/anything -- flash will always been No.1 for any interactive content on the net.

    The Adobe flash dev software - and all the free flash dev enviroments are what makes it so easy to use -- you can draw, code is highlighted,easy effects - like glow,shadows etc.

    Right now - html5 is all coding, no easy to use enviroment to develop stuff. No vector drawing environment, etc.

    Doesnt matter how advanced the upcoming 3d apis are As long as it is easier for developers to use flash, html5 will stay in the background.

    (Plus - how many sites have you seen with javascript errors - html5 depends on the website having the right javascript libraries, and any other files, etc installed in the right place -- all flash needs is a browser plugin, already installed on 99% of all pcs. Flash is going nowhere whoowhoo )

  3. #3
    Funkalicious TOdorus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Nijmegen, Netherlands
    Posts
    697
    Are you guys serious?

    Html5 is big. It's got some huge momentum. With that much support it will become a standard, the easy or hard way. So the whole argument on compatibility is seeing an alpha of something is on based on something still in development.

    Html5 is interesting as it is a standard, so it will be used for standardized things like a image gallery or video display. Like the article mentioned; Flash has a lot of libraries and frameworks. Really? So java hasn't? Html5 will be used for basic functionality. With the introduction of multimedia and Flash, Silverlight etc, the definition of basic functionality has changed and users and clients are more demanding. If you can churn out that functionality at a faster rate because it has been standerdized, that means a reduction in costs.

    Now you can do more with Flash, but hey, you need to invest more time as well. Flash has it's place on the net as it can provide more high-end functionality. So what do you want, basic or high end?

    To just take a fraction of webapplications (games) and say Flash is better suited for it, isn't really much to base an opinion on concerning html5 vs Flash. Really, how does one exclude the other?

  4. #4
    Senior Member Pazil's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    913
    Now while I don't agree with TOdorus on some points, I also certainly don't agree with itsallgood.

    I didn't mean to push Flash above the rest as numero uno, and something that wipes away it's competition. I have become increasingly cynical towards Flash in terms of what Adobe promises, and the stuff they actually deliver. The 3D Molehill API may be the ONE thing that will regain some of my respect.

    I meant to show with that post that some people's worries about Flash becoming totally useless because of HTML 5 are unjustified. I think that Flash will very much have a fine place to fit in (note, I really do mean fine) for the next few years even, before a) HTML 5 really grows into something considerable to support an easy implementation of video embedding etc., or b) until people switch from Flash to other solutions.

    By the way, I really don't get when itsallgood said that HTML 5 relies on Javascript. Like TOdorus said, HTML5 is more for laying out the web page, and sure, Javascript can use the new elements. But the main point of HTML5 is to provide a back bone for other scripts to use.

    Now what TOdorus said about being standardized, the only thing that will really get HTML 5 "standardized" is everyone updating their browsers to the newest versions, and also even then there will be a difference in results from HTML 5 depending on the OS and browser for the more complex things, such as video.
    What sets Flash apart in this respect is that updating the Flash Player seems like much less of a hassle than updating the whole browser. In a way, Flash Player is "standardized" across systems simply because it is using the same VM, and so one can expect identical results.

    All in all, I agree with TOdorus in the sense that HTML5 and Flash are quite different things, and that HTML5 is meant to be very basic, but I was just addressing previous fears of some that HTML5 spells doom for Flash in terms of video and image galleries. While one could probably make a simple video display/image gallery through javascript and html5, Flash is a lot faster and easier when you want to give extra functionality and animation functions, something that these days is a big thing (not really calling back on sources on this one, just something I've noticed).

    P.
    WIP-ZOMBIES

    I love vegetarians! More meat for the rest of us!

  5. #5
    Senior Member Pazil's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    913
    Freakin slow internet connection made me double post...
    WIP-ZOMBIES

    I love vegetarians! More meat for the rest of us!

  6. #6
    Yes we can tomsamson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Team Titan Secret Lair
    Posts
    4,666
    If you´re mostly doing games, then you can totally stick with flash or learn some other language or middleware focussed on game creation rather than jumping into html 5, at least for a while.
    If you´re mainly doing websites for earning your income, well, there are still a lot of things that can be done with flash which can´t be done in html5 but more and more things can be done with html 5, too and doing things without requiring a plugin is the en vogue thing there so then you´d better get into it asap.

  7. #7
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    633
    HTML5 is BullS%#$t. It;s useless crap and almost every single blog, reviews or examples site touting its greatness is simply a paid advertisement. Like you say it has some big names behind it and they pay marketing firms to pollute blogs, reviews and forums with fake reviews. It's been done since 1995 with many products ( from nVidia - ATI wars, AMD - intel and so on ) and is being done all the time. They all do it, even flash review sites or front pages of big portals are often paid placements.

    Take it from somebody who told you 3 years ago that Unity will never amount to anything in the browser gaming arena and of course I was right. Same with html5. It's crap that is completely insignificant right now and will remain so for at least the next 2-3 years.

    Don't believe the hype. It's nothing more than paid advertising. Worry about your next game design and let the HTML5 hypesters choke on their own $hit.

    If you can churn out that functionality at a faster rate because it has been standerdized, that means a reduction in costs.
    Flash is more standardized than HTML5 and far easier to pull of just about anything with flash than jump through hoops to get even a fraction of what flash can do. It will change some day, but right now HTML5 is a mess unless you are doing very basic stuff and this being flashkit I assume we are not into basics like displaying an image gallery or some equally trivial nonsense ( even that is probably still better done with flash and more standardzied )
    Last edited by MikeMD; 11-29-2010 at 09:36 AM.

  8. #8
    Yes we can tomsamson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Team Titan Secret Lair
    Posts
    4,666
    Quote Originally Posted by MikeMD View Post

    Take it from somebody who told you 3 years ago that Unity will never amount to anything in the browser gaming arena and of course I was right. Same with html5. It's crap that is completely insignificant right now and will remain so for at least the next 2-3 years.
    Haha, and with that snarky sidejab attempt you totally invalidated the rest of your commnent. Unless someone has missed the memo on unity made browser games by conpanies like Disney, EA and Lego being played by millions these days.

    Regarding your points on html 5, well, Flash is a brand controlled closed proprietary system whereas html 5 is in comparison an open standard, totally despite the point which has more downsides/ upsides.

    So while i agree that for game dev html 5 is no propper choice on most ends right now, your points make me wonder as usual =)

  9. #9
    Yes we can tomsamson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Team Titan Secret Lair
    Posts
    4,666
    Btw i also disagree with your assumption that using html 5 for things like games would remain insignificant for at least 2-3 more years.
    There are already first solutions for creating games emerging and i can see how there will be pretty usable ones in less than 2 years.
    Then with html 5 one has the advantage that there is no plugin required so once some of the currently common downsides are addressed that has some potential and will get wider reaching adoption.
    The main reason why i think your assumption that it would be insignificant for at least 2-3 more years are the emerging devices though.
    It is already the case now that the growing markets in computing devices are smartphones and tablets and among those the adoption of html 5/ modern browsers is going on way faster than with classical desktop machines.
    To me it is a nobrainer that average joe who is more consumer than creator when using a computing device would in a few years much rather use a device focussed on those needs like a smartphone or tablet and as those get renewed every 1-3 years (where 3 is the upper maximum usually)..
    My iPhone already supports html 5 way better than my windows pc with IE on it for example =)


    Besides that i don´t think one solution for game dev and publishing will dominate others to the degree of making them not used anymore, at least for a few more years.
    The contrary, there will be more options to get content out there in more ways than ever before, for a few more years at least.
    One can go to deploy to browser using a plugin based technology. Or go native client or html 5 or similar, so that it runs in the browser without any plugin required.
    One can create native apps in various solutions.
    One can use streaming services like onLive, gaikai etc to run on the thinnest clients/ even on weakest machines.
    Many many options.

    So yeah, again, if one is only doing websites and there doing things which could already now be done with html 5, well, it would be a good idea to get into learning html 5.
    But when it is about doing more involved things like games, there are more options at hand, not less or being forced to using a particular one.

    Basically one can look at how and for which platforms one wants to get content out there and based on that choose among various options.
    Last edited by tomsamson; 11-29-2010 at 05:41 PM.

  10. #10
    Custom User Title Incrue's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Posts
    974
    Then with html 5 one has the advantage that there is no plugin required so once
    No, but you have to update your browser, while some plugins can even self update themselves
    Besides, every designer i know still cares for older browsers
    Last edited by Incrue; 11-30-2010 at 08:38 AM.

  11. #11
    Yes we can tomsamson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Team Titan Secret Lair
    Posts
    4,666
    Yeah, sure, i worked at a web agency for several years, so i know what it is like to have to optimize for old netscape/ mozilla browsers and old IE 6 etc despite there being way way newer versions out there.
    It also is still the case today largely, still as i said, there is a big shift going on right now and for the next few years where it is changing on what type of device the majority of users experience games, apps ands web content. And those emerging device types do have way faster upgrade cycles, so yeah, in not too distant a future people will optimize more for such devices than for the 5+ years old windows desktop box.

    Btw "funny" coincident: My old pc crapped out yesterday night, so time to get a new one there finally, too =) The only 5+ years old device i had left sitting around here.


    And again, my comments where not to praise html5 adoption (which is at this point still weak even if it is accelerating faster and faster now) nor to praise or blame flash, as i said there are more and more platforms and design/development technology options and deploy options shaping up, not less of them, so yeah, just pick what suits your needs and wishes.

  12. #12
    Pumpkin Carving 2008 ImprisonedPride's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Grand Rapids MI
    Posts
    2,379
    Haha, you said "Netscape".
    The 'Boose':
    ASUS Sabertooth P67 TUF
    Intel Core i7-2600K Quad-Core Sandy Bridge 3.4GHz Overclocked to 4.2GHz
    8GB G.Skill Ripjaws 1600 DDR3
    ASUS ENGTX550 TI DC/DI/1GD5 GeForce GTX 550 Ti (Fermi) 1GB 1GDDR5 (Overclocked to 1.1GHz)
    New addition: OCZ Vertex 240GB SATA III SSD
    WEI Score: 7.6

  13. #13
    Dance Monkey Dance! Doush.'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Posts
    254
    Has anyone here tried making games with HTML 5?
    "I layed down in my bed last night looked up at the stars, and thought to myself... Where the F*#K is my roof"

  14. #14
    Yes we can tomsamson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Team Titan Secret Lair
    Posts
    4,666
    Quote Originally Posted by ImprisonedPride View Post
    Haha, you said "Netscape".
    Yeah, it seems so long ago now that that is gone, no? =)

  15. #15
    Pumpkin Carving 2008 ImprisonedPride's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Grand Rapids MI
    Posts
    2,379
    Quote Originally Posted by tomsamson View Post
    Yeah, it seems so long ago now that that is gone, no? =)
    You speak the truth. Seems too long ago Netscape blew me away... and downloading an mp3 in ten minutes was "blazing".
    The 'Boose':
    ASUS Sabertooth P67 TUF
    Intel Core i7-2600K Quad-Core Sandy Bridge 3.4GHz Overclocked to 4.2GHz
    8GB G.Skill Ripjaws 1600 DDR3
    ASUS ENGTX550 TI DC/DI/1GD5 GeForce GTX 550 Ti (Fermi) 1GB 1GDDR5 (Overclocked to 1.1GHz)
    New addition: OCZ Vertex 240GB SATA III SSD
    WEI Score: 7.6

  16. #16
    Yes we can tomsamson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Team Titan Secret Lair
    Posts
    4,666
    Haha, yeah, i still get reminded of the old early public internet access days most times when it is about downloading big files, too.

    For example my old pc crapped out end of last week so i got a new one and of course then the rest of my day was spent setting everything up to get a useful work environment on it, which meant downloading and installing tons of things.
    And yeah, that each time the download took way shorter than installing the app, even when it was about things several hundred Mb big reminded me again about the days when i had my first dial up modem, it would take way long to load a website with a few gifs on it and i really had to watch out not to stay online more than absolutely needed because the phone bill got sky high.

    "good old days"


    Also reminds me of a discussion on internet connections speeds and where things are evolving the other day.
    There i represented the stance that LTE/ 4G rollout is starting out in several regions this year and many others next year so that mobile connections can soon surpass the fastest landline connection speeds we have today, while at the same time for landline connections fiber rollout closer and closer to the end consumer is progressing in many places, too.
    Hence i was advocating that digital distribution is totally the future and we likely won´t see optical disc distribution around as mainstream distribution form for more than a few years.

    A guy from Indonesia argued against that saying they are still on expesnive slow dial in modem connections and digital delivery would therefore likely take 15-20 years till it becomes mainstream there and therefore retail box delivery of optical discs like bluray would still be mainstream in 15-20 years.


    Well, that then also reminded me again: Sure its unfortunate that things aren´t evolving positively as much as possible around the world at the same time and sure, where feasible one should also cater to an as large audience as possible.

    But then on the other side, as content creator i feel like at some point in between when one wants to do some more advanced stuff, well, it is then in that case maybe not a good idea to target the lowest common denominator anymore, because nowadays there is a gigantic difference between what the majority of the population has access to in some areas and what´s the state in other areas.

    If one wants to optimize games just regarding bandwidth throughput for the slowest connection speeds out there, well, games shouldn´t load in more than 100 kb still, whereas in other parts of the world one could easily have a game that has streaming data of several hundred Mb without the user ever having to experience a lengthy noticeable load time.

    Likewise the gap between lowest end machine regarding technical specs still sold somewhere today and the specs of a machine sold in other large parts of the world might vastly vary, some projects might be doable just fine for the lowest specs possible, while, well, if one always focusses on that, one maybe never can´t do some kind of content because it would only fly on higher spec machines.

    Heck, the new pc i bought is regarding machines sold here a totally average machine and it is in pretty much every regard so much more powerful than my crapped out five year old box was, that it is hardly even comparable.

    Makes one wonder what one wants to target as max/ min spec in between =)
    Last edited by tomsamson; 12-03-2010 at 12:06 PM.

  17. #17
    Pumpkin Carving 2008 ImprisonedPride's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Grand Rapids MI
    Posts
    2,379
    Quote Originally Posted by tomsamson
    so i got a new one and of course then the rest of my day was spent setting everything up
    That's why I banned Microcrap from my life.

    Ubuntu 4 Lyfe.

    Downloads: Instantaneous.
    Installs: Instantaneous.
    Performance: 100x better than Microcrap with the same crappy Gateway MT-6705 laptop w/1GB DDR2 ram.
    Last edited by ImprisonedPride; 12-03-2010 at 10:14 PM.
    The 'Boose':
    ASUS Sabertooth P67 TUF
    Intel Core i7-2600K Quad-Core Sandy Bridge 3.4GHz Overclocked to 4.2GHz
    8GB G.Skill Ripjaws 1600 DDR3
    ASUS ENGTX550 TI DC/DI/1GD5 GeForce GTX 550 Ti (Fermi) 1GB 1GDDR5 (Overclocked to 1.1GHz)
    New addition: OCZ Vertex 240GB SATA III SSD
    WEI Score: 7.6

  18. #18
    Yes we can tomsamson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Team Titan Secret Lair
    Posts
    4,666
    Hm, i don't get the part of installs going that much better.

    Besides that, well, i dabbled with all sorts of OS over the last few years, meanwhile i'm at the stance that i think none of them is perfect by any means but each of the major ones is quite useful for something so i like to have one or several machines around with different OS on so i can run all the apps etc which are only available on a particular one. Right now i have a mac and a pc, next year i'll maybe buy a new macbook pro and install mac OS, windows and linux on it =)

  19. #19
    Pumpkin Carving 2008 ImprisonedPride's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Grand Rapids MI
    Posts
    2,379
    I've been seeing Ubuntu exclusively for over a month now and I've yet to find something Windoze did for me that Ubuntu doesn't do for free and do with twice the performance. There are a few things it did for me that I wished Windoze could do but never did.
    The 'Boose':
    ASUS Sabertooth P67 TUF
    Intel Core i7-2600K Quad-Core Sandy Bridge 3.4GHz Overclocked to 4.2GHz
    8GB G.Skill Ripjaws 1600 DDR3
    ASUS ENGTX550 TI DC/DI/1GD5 GeForce GTX 550 Ti (Fermi) 1GB 1GDDR5 (Overclocked to 1.1GHz)
    New addition: OCZ Vertex 240GB SATA III SSD
    WEI Score: 7.6

  20. #20
    Custom User Title Incrue's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Posts
    974
    Programming for free, that sounds like a great way to live

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  




Click Here to Expand Forum to Full Width

HTML5 Development Center