Some 2advanced Criticism

[joey164]

i think that is great that you are studying in communication design......im working my way to get back to school to study in a similar field........

I do agree with you 100%.......no doubt.......

[ignission]

Originally posted by jacci
I think the LasikPlus site works kinda fine, thinking how many visitors they get every day. I think that without eric jordan the visits would be something like 3-5 times less then nowdays.

So many times designers tells me that I should find my own style and stick on it. Why on earth?? I have never done 2 sites with same style and I think I have worked right. It seems that nowdays ppl have started to think the same way. I really love Eric's work but I think that he should try some other styles too. Working with same style over and over again is kinda boring, I think.

[moot]

Originally posted by frreestyle
Im just so sick about hearing how everyone thinks that 2advanced is so amazing. In a sense it is because of the flash animation, but as a graphic designer I really feel that eric jordan needs to improve on his communication skills. What he really is, is an artist expressing his futuristc designs and animations. Certainly not a designer from what i can see

Personally, when I say 2advanced is a great site, that's exactly what I mean. It's a great site. I'm not sure if you're picking and choosing certain posts when you say this but I don't remember seeing people saying Eric Jordan has great communication skills. I never have. I couldn't have even told you who designed 2advanced until now.

I've read somewhere that a graphic designer should create something that grabs your attention and communicates the intended message. 2advanced.com does that. So he was very successful with that site. That's the site I praise. That's the site I see influencing and being ripped.

If you say his portfolio is repetitive then maybe it is. I would make sure you know why it is like that before you make assumptions. Clients suck but it's THEIR site. You do the best you can with what you have. I'm embarassed by what my clients have forced me to do. I also know that when I do something cool on one site and the next new clients sees it, he wants his like that. I'd assume his site - 2advanced - attracts most of his clients. You're judging his abilities based on the sites he builds to make his clients happy. It's business. He's trying to make money, not impress you with his range. How do you think the proposal meeting would go when a client is drawn in on 2advanced and he shows up with something organic using earthtones? The client is always right or he's somebody else's client.

2advanced is great. The person who designed that site designed a great site. If I wanted a site like that I would go to him.

[gasbag15]

Ok, I admit my answer was alittle hasty and partially incorrect..
But I believe design is definatly part of creating eye pleasing "Designs".
You can't just communicate through bad design.
(It makes sense to me )

[jjski]

I figure I might as well put in my two cents as well. Look at the works of Monet, Van Gogh, Rembrandt, etc, these are all classic artists that found their respective styles and stuck with them. There are many that like their works, as well as many that don't, nevertheless they will be criticized forever.
Now I am in no way comparing Eric Jordan to these artists, but he has found his style, and it works for him, his medium happens to be Flash. People ask why everything is compared to him, and the reason is that he is good at what he does. His work is not exactly my style, but as an artist I can recognize his skills.
So I say let the criticism continue, it is what makes art so compelling. If you do not like his work, stop going to his site. Does his style work? Yes, look at some of his clients (Vulcan)! He is probably kicking back in his leather easy chair counting the dough and laughing his ass off at all of us in these forums wasting time talking about him, when we should be developing our own styles.

[fla999]

jjski nailed it. Read the above post and move on.

[frreestyle]

u dont understand, there is a difference between having your own style or signature and giving a web site a voice. If you're talking about the masters, than take van gogh for instance - his STYLE is impressionism, his use of short brush strokes to depict a mood, he uses this style to depict not just 1 but MANY moods. Eric jordan has a style and that is "futuristic" "technical" "busy" and "fast paced" - you can only use this style for clients with a company that can be described with those buzz words.

he has an E-flyer in one of his sections about something called factor - i have no idea what this is supposed to be, if you want a good example of something that lacks a voice, then check that out in his portfolio. A good designer will make the layout in a way that when it is viewed, you know exactly what the message is within 2 seconds. Can you honestly tell me what this is supposed to be in 2 seconds?

-- im not trying to be mean or harsh or anything, i think eric jordan is incredible at using flash, i just want to let you all know that design isnt about amazing visuals --

[ziad10]

hey freestyle why don't you show us some of your work?

i would listen to you if you could do what "2advanced isn't"

[moot]

Originally posted by frreestyle
Eric jordan has a style and that is "futuristic" "technical" "busy" and "fast paced" - you can only use this style for clients with a company that can be described with those buzz words.

Yeah, I certainly wouldn't want a website on the internet showing on somebody's computer that is futuristic, technical, and fast paced. His clients are craaaazy.

It sure must be nice to not even be working yet and already know more about making money building websites than Eric Jordan. It must be even better to know more about marketing than all of his clients.

I remember what that was like. Ahhhhh to be young and inexperienced.

[aversion]

Originally posted by ziad10
hey freestyle why don't you show us some of your work?

i would listen to you if you could do what "2advanced isn't"

but it's not about this 'who's is bigger' crap.

style is NOT design. Design is making the appropriate decisions based on the 'voice' of the piece, in the case of commercial web design the voice is whatever message the web site has to express. Style is only one small part of acheiving this.

whether his style is good or not was not the original debate here, whether he makes appropriate design decisions was the point.

as freestyle said early the iPod advert is an excellent example of effective design, think of what someone else said earlier, the idea that sony stereos look futuristc and that's what makes them good design... but what makes them good design is the fact that they do they the job they were intended for, not that they look pretty, looking pretty is one of the design decisions but only one.

amazon.com is good design, but it's not pretty....



[Edited by aversion on 03-12-2002 at 11:06 AM]

[TomK]

Yeah to all of the above.

He won't give a flying f*** whether people think he is a designer, an artist or whatever. He's busy and that's what counts. At the end of the day he's running a business, and if what he does sells, he's certainly not going to turn his back on it.

[moot]

Originally posted by aversion
as freestyle said early the iPod advert is an excellent example of effective design[/B]

I'd bet that a whole advertising department was behind that iPod advertisement. Marketing people, management, salesman got together and created that ad. They decided it was to be a clean product shot with that blurb. Was there a designer putting the words together with the picture of the product? Sure. Did a designer create that ad? No. If the advertising department wanted some trendy girl dancing at a rave with the iPod and the designer came back with a clean white product with a blurb, he'd either work overtime to give them what they wanted or work overtime on his resume.

The client gets what the client wants. The ad dept. was the iPod advertisement designer's client. He gave them what they wanted. Eric Jordan gave his clients what they wanted. Complain to them or better yet, go take their business.

[frreestyle]

Yeah this isn't about me at all, and im not jealous of anything. I stated this in an earlier post. Yes i know that he's making a lot of money, but he still has a lot to learn about commmunication design - the correct way to make great graphic design. There are design firms out there who make much more money than eric jordan. eric jordan is only popular within the "flash" community because everyone who posts things on this message board loves working with flash and making cool designs.

and yes he is busy doing a lot of work, but in my opinion i dont think it is good design. A lot of awards are given out to bad design because they only look at the surface of it. They dont look at the meaning behind it, the important decisions, the amount of research, does it help the company sell? without the fact that eric jordan is famous for using flash techniques. and a lot of great designs aren't noticed right away because they may not look great on the surface. But its function, meaning and purpose goes a long way.

-- i want to stress that this has nothing to do about me, and im not at all saying im better than him or anyone. Im only trying to spark an interesting conversation/debate by contradicting most people and maybe shed some light on new theory's --

[jjski]

I don't think that everything in the guys portfolio has to have content. He is allowed to experiment, like hundreds of other site we see in this forum. I see tons of flying squares and circles that are created from actionscipt, but have no meaning.
Look at Dadaism, that was a style that made sure there was no content, but yet its still in art history books. Was it art?
Also notice how many comments there are everytime 2Advanced is mentioned, and its usually the same people talking abou him. I say he is pretty successful at making us communicate. Like I said before, everyone can criticize and critique, because it is what makes art compelling and interesting.

[frreestyle]

But dada is all about aesthetics and wasn't there to help a company sell their product or service so how can you compare graphic design to that.

And it is an absolute neccessity for a web site for a company to have meaning, purpose and function - otherwise people will look at it and go "hey, that looks pretty" and walk away! just like they do with dada sculptures.

Design is all about sending a signal (message) to a reciever (viewer) - you want the least amount of static (clutter)to be there. But there are cases where you can have a lot of crap there (if they have meaning) and the design will still work, so long as the message is still strong.

[jjski]

Dada was trying to sell the idea of rebellion with the abolition of traditional culture. Eric Jordan is selling a product yes, but they are both selling something; communication.
Now I do not like a bicycle wheel on a stool, or a bunch of distracting animations all over the page, but they are both successful at getting us to talk about them.

[frreestyle]

maybe, but eric jordan is communicating the wrong message coming from many of the projects in his portfolio


- and please stop all this "move on" business. I think this is a very educational and provocative post which sparked a great conversation about design. Maybe you can learn something from this. if not from me, then from someone who can prove me wrong. -
[Edited by frreestyle on 03-12-2002 at 06:02 PM]

[moot]

Why aren't you addressing the fact that he doesn't get to do whatever he wants to do? Are you reading any of my posts? You keep going on and on with your classroom idealism about the essence of design and some pursuit of perfection. Ideals are for guidance. His portfolio is business. He's building sites to make money, not to get an A in design for some theoretical widget manufacturer in a design class. The only site you can assume he was able to build exactly the way he wanted to build is 2advanced.com.

Take your textbook ideal, ignore the real world environment, and use that ideal find fault in his real world accomplishment if it makes you feel like you know something. Ignorance is bliss.

[frreestyle]

Moot i am not ignoring you... take this quote of yours:

"How do you think the proposal meeting would go when a client is drawn in on 2advanced and he shows up with something organic using earthtones? The client is always right or he's somebody else's client."

Just the other day one of my professor's told the class the client is NOT always right. The clients are not the designers, they must listen to the designer. They come to them with a problem. They need something that will help them sell - this is what the designer is trained for, the only thing the client can do is state their problem and give the designer research so that they can know the client better than they know themselves. It is the designer's responsibility to solve this problem in the best possible way and if he looks back on the finished product and compares it to the problem and it is not the best solution, then he has failed and he must do it over.

you say the clients come to 2advanced because they like his style, but style is different from voice he can have a style, but he needs to give these clients different voices to establish a dance club from a quarterback club, otherwise they come off as the same type of "person"

[ziad10]

quote by freestyle:
-----------------------------
But dada is all about aesthetics and wasn't there to help a company sell their product or service so how can you compare graphic design to that.

And it is an absolute neccessity for a web site for a company to have meaning, purpose and function - otherwise people will look at it and go "hey, that looks pretty" and walk away! just like they do with dada sculptures.

Design is all about sending a signal (message) to a reciever (viewer) - you want the least amount of static (clutter)to be there. But there are cases where you can have a lot of crap there (if they have meaning) and the design will still work, so long as the message is still strong.
--------------------------------

freestyle how are you so sure that his design does not sell client's products? it's not like you have any facts. you are just guessing, you are guessing that people will see the futuristic stuff and say thats cool and walk away!

you could easily be wrong!!

for all you know, people could be going to the website, see it's awesome and have a feeling that the company is "cool" even though it's not a "futuristic company" and they will buy there products.

yeah it may not seem right for some companies to have sites that are "futuristic" but thats just a guess! they may be doing amazing because of eric's design!!