Cookie cutter site cost me a client - how do you compete?

[Geoff Edwards]

I recently was asked to cost a simple Flash enhanced site for a client.

I quoted a price of $3500 CDN.

The next thing I hear the client has gone online and used a cookie cutter type of web based site to build a simple Flash enhanced web site by himself. It took him about two hours. He knows there were some limitations with the capability of this method and plans to have me work on a better site at a later date.

The price about $1000 CDN.

How do 'you' compete with this type of competition?

[OddDog]

simple.

you do not.

well not quite true that...

design
professionalism
experience
maintanence
specialization

it sucks but, as the tools for making simple sites get easier to use and better distributed, we had better learn to add value to the development process. those that do not will have a very hard time in the future.

there will always exist clients that do not wont to pay for a UNIQUE presence on the web and will use a template style thing.

just some thoughts.

sorry to hear you story mate

[nocrapchurch]

This is interesting that you bring this up, Geoff, because I was thinking of starting a similar thread.

This morning I had a discussion with the head of my department. He had interviewed a guy yesterday that was applying for a Business Analyst position. The guy was definitely a developer though. He was very experienced in ASP, COM, Visual Basic, etc. He had no real business analyst experience. He already was working for a pretty big company and being paid very well as a lead deveoper.

My boss asked him point blank, "You're obviously well employed at your current company as a lead developer. Why would you want to take a career move into a business analyst position?"

The guy replied, "Its because the tools used to build websites, databases, and application have become so easy to use and are becoming even easier. More and more people are able to program. I want to move into a career where you still need specialists."

Anyway, the guy didn't get the job because he just wasn't qualified, but that's not the point. The point is what he said is true.

A great example is Flash MX. Look at the drag-and-drop scroll bar you can now insert into a textbox. I once spent several days programming a big site so all the text had little scroll bars. If I ever needed to change anything in that site, it would be a pain in the butt. If I had used Flash MX, those scroll bars would have taken me a half hour. And if I need to change the scrolls bars developed in Flash MX, it would be no problems at all.

Now part of me thinks that these new features save time for us developers to be able to make more advanced applications in less time and effort. But another part of me thinks now there are even more people who are able to do in a matter of minutes what used to take me several hours to do.

How do I compete against this? I just can't. I used to make a lot of money off of doing a ton of intros. But anyone can do intros now. Its no big deal. Even advanced ones are easy as hell (maybe that's part of the reason people are hating them).

So what I have done is moved into more advanced stuff. I offer complex database programming and content management. At the moment, most newbies cannot offer such services. So that's where I keep my edge.

But in a few years, I may have to move into even more advanced stuff.

So basically, I compete by continually developing my services and skills to offer more advanced products.

Great topic, Geoff.

-scott
http://www.scottmanning.com/

[dlowe93]

Originally posted by nocrapchurch
This is interesting that you bring this up, Geoff, because I was thinking of starting a similar thread.

<snip>

The guy replied, "Its because the tools used to build websites, databases, and application have become so easy to use and are becoming even easier. More and more people are able to program. I want to move into a career where you still need specialists."

Anyway, the guy didn't get the job because he just wasn't qualified, but that's not the point. The point is what he said is true.

-scott
http://www.scottmanning.com/

<devil's advocate>
frankly scott, i don't belive this is true
</devil's advocate>

seriously, i don't think it is over for talented, professional web designers. three examples:

1. my background is in print design and production. i remember when desktop publishing tools became easy enough for the average computer user to build a page or two and get it semi-professionally printed. a lot of people predicted that it was the end for professional print designers, now that anyone could do it for themselves right on their desktops.

guess, what? that was over ten years ago, and print design is still going strong. look around your office, every book, manual, magazine, logo, spec sheet, cd cover, software or hardware package, probably all designed and produced by professionals, and i'll bet you can pick out the ones that were not.

when i worked for a small commercial printer, we used to cringe when a client would say "i'll just do it myself and bring the files in on disk". it was almost always a disaster that would require more hours to fix than to build it from scratch, and those were hours that the client did not want to pay for since they "brought the files in themselves". just because the tools make things easier to do, doesn't guarantee that they will be done right.

2. before going into print, i was a photographer for a local daily newspaper. imagine how amusing it was to do something 99% of the world thinks they can do.

with current point and shoot and digital camera technology, logic follows that everyone should be turning out pulitzer prize winning photos. ain't happnen. it's just a tool. just as a nice new canon D1 with a full set of lenses won't make you a better photographer, flash mx won't make you a better designer.

3. thanks to my father, i have access to full suite of professional tools, power and otherwise. i could build a house using his equipment.

trust me. you don't want me to build you a house. enough said.

so, what's my point? yes the tools exist to make it easy for the average user to build a flash site. yes, we will lose jobs to these people and to other bottom feeder developers, but no, i don't think it's the end for anyone who is a professional designer/developer and who can offer their clients professional solutions. there are clients and will continue to be clients who understand the value of a quality, professional solution, and will pay for that service.

just my two crumbs,

d.

[aversion]

Originally posted by Geoff Edwards
I recently was asked to cost a simple Flash enhanced site for a client.

I quoted a price of $3500 CDN.

The next thing I hear the client has gone online and used a cookie cutter type of web based site to build a simple Flash enhanced web site by himself. It took him about two hours. He knows there were some limitations with the capability of this method and plans to have me work on a better site at a later date.

The price about $1000 CDN.

How do 'you' compete with this type of competition?

i'd be interested to see just how good this template site was, $1000 is still a lot to pay for something like that. Was it actually an effective site in your clients opinion?

[Geoff Edwards]

Hi Aversion,

A little clarification the cost was $600 USD that's about $1000 Canadian give or take.

I just checked and the site is not showing on his URL yet. So perhaps they are not happy with the outcome yet...

dlowe93, you make some very valid points. The tools don't make the craftsman. Your post contains some good points we can use when clearing clients objections after you have spent time doing up one of your nice neat web site proposals. You know, next time you speak with a client who says somthing like: "well I am pretty good with a computer. I'm thinking of just going online and making a web site."

[Quasidandy]

WEll, you get what you pay for. That's the long and short of it. I've lost plenty of clients to they cheaper guy. But if they really believe that they'll get the same quality for the underbid, then they obviously don't understand the nature of this service, and could potentially be a huge pain in the ass client should you get the job. Every time, they're thinking "well, this doesn't look so amazing, why is he/she charging me and arm and a leg. I think I'm getting ripped off..." and then you've got a issue to deal with. Sometimes it's better to let the crumbs fall to the birds and the rats.

and dlowe93, I totally get your position. I started out in a printshop as well. People bringing in MS Publisher files and getting pissed off when we say we just can't print 'em. Had one guy actually tell me on the phone "It's about time you guys wake up and enter the Microsoft world"!!! I so had to bite my tongue! This as I'm sitting in front of my $3000 Mac, with my $700 version of Quark and $600 Photoshop running...oh yeah, he was a 'Graphic Designer' too!

Fact is, you have to keep challenging yourself as a designer/developer/professional of any sort, or you will become obsolete. This dedication is why you will be known as either a Professional, or simply cousin Joey.

two cents...

Quasi

[Geoff Edwards]

Originally posted by Quasidandy
Fact is, you have to keep challenging yourself as a designer/developer/professional of any sort, or you will become obsolete. This dedication is why you will be known as either a Professional, or simply cousin Joey.

Good point and thanks for reiterating what Scott Manning said earlier. We must continually think outside of the box. With our work, our capabilities, and our salesmanship/marketing.

[Ed Mack]

Though, the client may come limping back when they find that their mega template program can't do what they want, and they can't find, say a template database app maker.

[cyk]

they also may not like it when they run into their own site with someone else's name on it. Much like wearing the same dress to the prom-These templates, they look nice at first and since the web is so enormous it seems unlikely to them that they would see the same design, but I bet the first time it happens they'll be quite red with embarrasment. If the concept (of templates) ever takes off it will be funny to see these people running back to the private companies and free-lancers to give them some sense of identity.

[Geoff Edwards]

Wow that's a good point. To drive the point home it would be fun (albeit expensive) to make that happen.

[Ed Mack]

Well, if you ever do find there site, look for some template text, and do a google search, then you nkow the rest

[nocrapchurch]

Geoff,

Here's an article you might appreciate called Cheaper over Better - Why web clients settle for less.

-scott
http://www.scottmanning.com/

[Geoff Edwards]

Hi again Scott,

That's a good article he makes some very good points. Thanks for bringing it to my attention.

Cheers.

[hurricaneone]

You know, there's a lot of misunderstanding in the non-webversed population. Why they should pay 3 or 4 times the price for something they (and I mean 'they' in a narrow minded, tunnel vision kind of way) can only perceive as being the same, whatever the price, simply beggars their belief.

I like what I read at Scott's site, that if you have a customer saying 'How much', ask him/her how much they'd pay for a car. Depends on the type & options is the answer, and that's exactly how a site should be sold. (Sorry the technique can only really work if you're one-on-one).

Other than that, educate your customer (as best as you can) and then treat them with a little respect (even if they don't deserve it). We're currently in the hunt of a shopping mall site, and the customer doesn't even have a fax machine, let alone a computer (welcome to Brazil!). So after drafting the contract, I drove back the next day (Saturday) to drop it off. Can't gaurantee it'll get us the contract, but it sure as hell can't hurt.

Finally, re: the increasing ease of net creation products. I've got to say (and I'm sorry for treading on toes), there's many a 'designer' out there who couldn't design their way out of a wet paper bag (that includes network developers, programmers etc. who think that design is something that should be considered 15 minutes before the final 'product' is delivered). Of course, this can work both ways - the good ones'll get referrals, but the bad ones create such enmity, the whole website development service gets a bad wrap. No, I think that there's a limited amount of real, Gods honest design talent around and that keeps things interesting. Hey, there's a lot of typewriters but only one Shakespeare. Geoff, perhaps you can nominate that on-the-fly site for http://www.sitesthatsuck.com. I bet it's a worthy candidate.

[Black_phoenix]

"u can't buy style"

things will get more simple as time goes on, not bought mx yet, no disrepect to ppl but u see some lame work done in flash

i started in print many years ago and to be able to design cant be bought, i dont think i'm the greatest but i see some work and i smile

new things will come, ten years ago no flash ?

what will come next, they will have ppl on it now

good thread

[active2]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by aversion

Originally posted by Geoff Edwards
I recently was asked to cost a simple Flash enhanced site for a client.

I quoted a price of $3500 CDN.

The next thing I hear the client has gone online and used a cookie cutter type of web based site to build a simple Flash enhanced web site by himself. It took him about two hours. He knows there were some limitations with the capability of this method and plans to have me work on a better site at a later date.

The price about $1000 CDN.

How do 'you' compete with this type of competition?

There is an old saying that "A good craftsman never blames his tools". In other words, the skill is within the hands and mind of the technician, and in this case not in the software being used. We all had to start somewhere with design and I know from learning the hard way that I have made some blunders in my early naive enthusiasm. The point is that I stuck to it, learned my craft, and continue to do so.

Many years ago in another life I was a jewellery manufacturer and designer. I ran a successful business servicing the retail trade that constantly had competitors popping up and telling my clients they could do it cheaper. One guy even came and got a copy of my wholesale price list and cut every price by 30%. I never once gave in on my prices. Sure I lost some customers, but they always eventually came back. In the finish I had less customers, but they were loyal and they were prepared to pay for my quality of service.

Last week I began a community based very basic Web Design course at a local high school. I found it interesting that several of my students are people who have proudly told me in the past that they have built their own Web site for their businesses. (OK not Flash but you get what I mean don't you?). They are the type of sites that DO make you smile, right down to the spelling errors. Now, they are at least seeing the light and coming back to start at square one and find out what they have done wrong. They have realised or are beginning to realise that Web design is not as "easy" as they first told me it was.

Point is, they have every right to learn, but the main theme running through this thread stands the test of time. There is no substitute for talent.

[j_red]

Go to a small town and look at the signage on the buildings or look at the flyers on the walls or look at the business cards or the letterheads or ads or whatever. You will see evidence of letting the secretary pick some clip-art and a font rather than letting a designer design.
Contrast that experience with a visit to NYC - everything is on purpose. The same problem you have w/the 'clip-art' flash sites is the same problem designers have been dealing with for years. Love, J_red

[dissector]

A lot of web sites at the moment are basically online pamphlets with a lot of design and info on what the company does and how to contact them. Watching the launch of MX it shows that Macromedia at least think that web pages are going to turn into full blown applications. The .net rollout planned by Microsoft is further evidence of this. For most sites I think design will become less important as navigation and interactions become standardised and websites will be differentiated by the services they provide rather than what they look like. There will still be some sites which are mainly image based but I can't see people deliberately going to a site which offers nothing more than an online advert. Online stores will all look very similar as it will make it much easy to buy more stuff if you know how to navigate and interact because its the same as everywhere else. Its possible that flash will become a good application development tool and if that's the case a lot of flash 'designers' will be able to work on programming the new applications. It looks to me like coldfusion MX could be the tool to learn for this type of thing. True designers/illustrators who don't want to get involved in scripting will be needed too but in the development on online entertainment, advertising and education. It may be that Flash will be a good tool for the development of this type of thing too, it certainly is one of the best at the moment. The cookie cutter site design tools go to show that websites as a whole won't need much 'design' from an artistic point of view... as long as they are easy to use and offer a good service (ie cheap clothes, fast delivery, etc). If companies are happy with a standardised look (and there is good research to show this makes for good usability) then more and more will choose cookie cutter sites. If you want to provide a service on your site, graphics and 'interesting' navigation won't add to the service but take away precious web page real estate.

Chris

[marky176]

good thread, a constant battle.
everyone thinks they can be "a bit of a whizz on the net", that's a good thing, we need lots of people here, but yeah, it's hard having to teach miniature design diplomas to every client ten times a week before they let you change anything. Especially when they don't trust or respect your craft anyway and you're talking to a brick wall.

our clients are by definition lacking in design expertise, but unfortunately they rarely have the humility to admit this, they won't leave you alone to work your magic and pay properly like they do many other contractors from different industries. They think merely owning eyeballs is all the qualification needed to judge visual art and design.

the business world is fixated on budgets and most clients think they are being clever businessmen by shunning your ridiculously "overpriced" and "fancy" stuff.

Ho hum. I don't have the answers, just look for clients in the right places and leave the room if you think they're buying on price. Not all are, and cheapskates take up all your time nagging on the phone, and they try to back out of paying anyway.

Or.... churn out rubbish and abuse your clients' trust and your profession's dignity - you'll probably make more money! It's the American Way! A McDesign Sandwich and Extra Fries please!