[Disc] Serious Games?

[Ray Beez]

*deleted*

[artlink]

what about a middle way, like a Rosebud's cube?

[WilloughbyJackson]

Yeah, people keep comparing the medium to movies, and indirectly to literature, but the fact remains that games are at their very core, elaborate "toys". (Argue all you want about the peripheral features such a toy might have, such as story, visuals, sounds, etc, etc... the very CORE is a toy that you play with).

So having made that important distinction I would say there is no reason why any game developer should be motivated to aim for a "citizen kane" when the reality is they should aim for a "Rubik's Cube".

It depends on how you look at it. Calling games elaborate toys maybe an over simplification, since my brother has a GPS in his car, and it is his "toy" but it's not much of game. What a toy is, is different to different people. There is a large segment of people who like games which are mostly cut-scene movies (like Final Fantasy or Metal Gear Solid series).

However, toys are usually entertaining, which is why the movie and music comparisons come up so often.

The problem is the game industry is like post WWII Hollywood. The pictures cost a lot of money to make and people are AFRAID to make something artistic or different because it might be a box office bomb (like Citizen Kane was). Just look at poor Majestic games and Psychonaughts (which is a wonderful game but since it "looked" kiddie and didn't have any big name license, it did badly).

Someone HAS to make the Citizen Kane of games. I'm not sure what it will be like, but I'm SURE it will flop sales wise.

-pXw
(Who wants to be the David Lynch of games :P )

[Ray Beez]

*deleted*

[WilloughbyJackson]

RESPONDING TO AN OFF TOPIC DEBATE...

I guess my first post was pretty bad.

After some thought (since I was working on a game when I tried the first response) I realized what the two problems I have with the term "toy" are.

First off, I think despite how well the definition fits, it has and will always have a "kid" sigmatism associated with it. Similar to how Nintendo in the US is often called "the kiddie comapny" but in Japan, it is considered "all ages". Statistically, most gameplayers are over the age of 30 nowadays, yet, throughout the US, people are treating the game industry like they make toys for children. I think a lot of developers are trying to get serious, so groups can not kidify the industry.

Another example of this issue is using the term "cartoon" versus "animation" or "anime". Anime fans for YEARS had to fight the attitude that cartoons are for kids. I remember kids being pulled out of the local screening of Akira. It was animated = it's a cartoon = it's for kids (despite the R rating). A lot of individuals started using the term animation to describe works as oppose to cartoons in attempt to break from that attitude.

Secondly, "game" is already a perfect definition for what video games are. Ever game can be considered a toy, but not every toy is game. By definition, a game (from mystery date, to tic-tac-toe, football, dice, poker, hide and seek, Super Mario Brothers, Yar's Revenge, GTA and beyond) has a set of rules, and a winning and losing condition. However, some toys are just simple things to play with, like G.I.Joe, Barbie or whatever. Children use the toys to CREATE games, but in the end, the toy themselves are not the game, but a tool in the game.

Remember, the game indsutry thought it was turning into Hollywood in the mid 90's, and what did we get? "movies" with a little bit of interaction thrown in. How did that work out for them? It just baffles me when people keep trying to think of ways to turn games into something they are not. (Chris Crawford: You're perp #1 when it comes to this crime!)

Well... Hollywood is dumb.

PS: Why can't GTA San Andreas be considered a "Citizen Kane" of the games industry? Why can't Final Fantasy X be considered the "Love Story" of games?

If anything, GTA III might be considered the "Star Wars" of games. It created an entire genre of copycat games, most of which missed what made the movies special in the first place (and after watching Episode I.. I think Lucas didn't know either...)

Final Fantasy X is a GREAT example of a movie game. Because if it wasn't for the story, I would have had NO FUN with that game.

If there was a Citizen Kane of video games... EDIT: Pac man probably...

Admittedly, most of the really artistic games come out on the independent game development scene. Games like Rumble Box, Narbacular Drop (the team who developed that are making Halo II Episode II's Portal puzzle game...IT LOOKS LIKE IT WILL ROCK), often times are trying something different, experimental. And just like Hollywood, some experiments will be appreciated and adapted into the mainstream game industry.

Either way, a David Lynch game would rock.

[Ray Beez]

I've deleted my off-topic posts. I saved what I wrote and will start a new discussion thread.

Willough can you do the same?

[PhobiK]

Well, recently I stumbled across a website while in search of educational games called http://www.seriousgames.org. I guess I just don't see too much, especially not on this site, game development with an educational value or one that I guess would create productive results through its gameplay.

I personally find myself having a hard time seeing a type of game I personally could make that would have some sort of educational application or would help create social change besides some far out ideas about a game from "terrorist's" point of view maybe just to show that people have different mindsets for a reason.

Anyways, I'm just curious if anyone has any thoughts on making games with a purpose besides entertainment. I think it would be wonderful if more people spent their time making games, maybe even were just as fun but had a historical context so that people playing flash games online were learning at least something while playing.

I think it's some good way to make learning more fun but usually learning and fun are two different concepts. It's a cool idea but I'd enjoy more a game that I play only for fun than for educational purposes. I participated once in a contest that pretended exactly what you say; they promoted learning about global problems through gaming, and they offered prizes to the winners. Here's the link to those games if you're interested http://www.globalsolutions.org/games/2005games.html