A lack of understanding of business and consumer users among flash designers???

[Canned_Heat]

I'm new to flash, new to this community so I'm not here to start a pooping contest. However, as a person who has been doing large corporate sites for years, I am somewhat shocked at the lack of understanding (by flash web designers) of the wants and needs of the B2B business community.

I have browsed the archives looking for examples of good corporate sites that utilize flash. I haven't found any. As an example of a design that lacks understanding of the business sector I'll use one I just viewed:
http://www.bzeeness.com.

I'm on cable and I usually get my full 2meg bandwidth. But even with that speed, this site takes about 30 seconds to load a 15 second flash sequence, then takes another loading pause to get the main page/menu. I can't even -IMAGINE- how long this would take using a 56k modem.

Now, I'm not picking on this site or designer... it's only used as a good example, OK? However, in my experience, designs such as this don't even begin to address the needs and desires of the B2B community or even the business-to-end consumer sector for that matter.

In both the B2B and B-to-end consumer sectors, users want SPEED.

I once designed a corporate site that utilized javascript OnMouseOver's with a few small graphics. When linking to the site, it -immediately- started to appear in the browser and (underneath the surface) all graphics were loaded in 22 seconds, and this using a 56k modem! NONETHELESS, their customers complained about "wasting their time."

In the B2B sector, the viewer of a site is usually an owner or manager of another business looking for a new vendor, product, etc. THEY'RE BUSY PEOPLE, people! They -don't- have time to waste, nor -desire- to waste. And if you -DO- waste their time, guess what??? They'll simply click off and go elsewhere. For that matter, the same is true with end consumers whose intent is to purchase products and services. Yes, entertainment-seeking users will wait for animations and such. But the business or consumer sector user is a completely different animal.

Didn't you ever wonder why on mega-giants such as Amazon, Ebay, Ubid, and others you -never- see "loading flash" pauses. And when they -do- utilize flash, it't usually for very small graphics, text banners, etc? That's because the design teams of those sites -understand- their target audiences.

I'm not impressed with the sites of web-design or marketing companies, either. To be sure, from my point of view some of the flash items I have seen are incredible. However, if I were a BUSINESS OWNER looking for a web design firm, the very first thought that came across my mind would be: "WOW! That's pretty and very imaginative, but we certainly don't want that slow loading crap on -OUR- site!" Then I would go elsewhere.

Yes, I understand the point of this site and the usefullness of flash on corporate sites. But loading horribly large graphic/movie sequences? Forcing unwanted music on viewers? Creating menu/navigation systems that are not -clearly- easy to understand? Do flash designers -really- understand the business sector? From what I have seen so far, not much.

[johnie]

Actually CIO hosted a discussion between Vincent Flanders and Nielson about this http://www.cio.com/archive/120101/online.html ...

Now a lot of people here hate Nielson but he does make a lot of valid points about Usability. A lot of designers, Flash or otherwise (Note: DHTML, Regular HTML with other Plug-In/image tech, VML, and SVG can and are abused as much as Flash, just don't get it- I think the worst abuse of it is with MS Producer demos). On B2B and Consumer retail sites speed and finding what they need is paramount and having a "Kewl" page is only a very small aspect of it. However this is not the technologies fault by any means. If anything Flash Can spead up a site becuase it can present animation and motion in a smaller file size than GIF. Look at all those little Flash footers that some people have added to their sigs. These footers are all suppose to be under 15K (If they aren't it gets pulled by FK). This would be hard to do in GIF with less than 15K.

So to answer your question...

Flash if used right actually speeds things up and enhances usabilty but when used wrong, and its not hard to find a Flash design done wrong, it can be bad.

[*gearworx]

I couldn't agree more.. Flash is good but if you don't utilize it the correct way it can harm the functionality of your site. I guess there is not much for me to say so I'll leave it at that.

[Aria]

Originally posted by johnie
So to answer your question...

Flash if used right actually speeds things up and enhances usabilty but when used wrong, and its not hard to find a Flash design done wrong, it can be bad.

agree !

Flash if used properly can provide you with great flexibility! Personalised sites is one of them - i.e using flash and JS cookies can extend your site: from allowing your users to customise and choose the experience they want to have when they visit your site based on THEIR needs to prolifing your users bandwith

We have come a long way ! certain usability 'gurus' havent though!

a

[david petley]

very good point johnie,
I have seen threads in Swish forum where they competed to make the smallest animated, full menu interface for a site and the top limit was 5kb.
I also build commercial and B2B websites and understand the demands and needs of this customer base.

But......
i love animation, I love story-telling, I love entertainment for entertainment's sake. Take a look at this site - http://www.conclaveobscurum.ru./
and tell me that some flash movies aren't worth waiting for. Pull some of them out of your browser cache when you are off-line and open them full-screen in your monitor. It's art, pure and simple, and has a place in business as well as anywhere else. Look at television advertising. The problem lies not with the medium but with the delivery of the medium. The skill lies with using the tool in appropriate way, 'cos that is all it is, a communication tool.
david p.

[johnie]

Originally posted by david petley


But......
i love animation, I love story-telling, I love entertainment for entertainment's sake. Take a look at this site - http://www.conclaveobscurum.ru./
and tell me that some flash movies aren't worth waiting for. Pull some of them out of your browser cache when you are off-line and open them full-screen in your monitor. It's art, pure and simple, and has a place in business as well as anywhere else. Look at television advertising. The problem lies not with the medium but with the delivery of the medium. The skill lies with using the tool in appropriate way, 'cos that is all it is, a communication tool.
david p.

I agree with you, as does Vincent Flander, Art for Arts sake has a place on the web. It just does not belong on B2B and Retail sites.

[johnie]

Originally posted by Naked inc.
here is a nice blend of both art and business...loads quick.
flash and XML with PHP and SQL.
http://www.agentprovocateur.com/
checkout the store, the flash version is on the left after you click the 'STORE' link from the menu.

You are Joking? I hope you are becuase when I view it there is no Flash and no site. Perhaps they have used a dreaded SSI script to block my browser- Another design No No. I'll mask it as IE 6.0 and see if it is different.

[LanSite]

Part of the problem is ... I hate full screen <hits alt + f4> ... and it didn't load that quickly ... were I looking for something, I would not have waited around for it to load.

[johnie]

I have it figured out. My browser rejects popups onload- This is serious design Flaw as many browsers and 3'rd party tools, in paticular ad blockers, do this if set to.

[psychlonex]

Flash doesn't have to be slow! If used well, it should be much faster than html. I don't want to toot my own horn, but here's a site I'm working on now:
http://www.conciousriddims.com/oasis
(this site is still very much in progress!)

Naked, I just checked out your link, why is there a seperate store for mac users? Other than that, I think it's quite a well designed site.

Psx

[aversion]

Originally posted by Naked inc.
here is a nice blend of both art and business...loads quick.
flash and XML with PHP and SQL.
http://www.agentprovocateur.com/

they are a good business for visual expression, they have a strong image and want to get across a 'sexy' atmosphere.. other clients wouldn't want this kind if thing, but i agree it's a good example.

Originally posted by johnnie.
Art for Arts sake has a place on the web. It just does not belong on B2B and Retail sites.

that's the best summation, you have to design for your market, there's not always a place for flash and there's not always a place for 'flash'

[LanSite]

I guess this site is the perfect argument ... for the people looking for that sort of thing - they might be willing to sit through it ... I'm not ... anymore I dread seeing the 'loading' - images fading in and out ... I'm becoming intolerant, I guess

[johnie]

To be completly honest this is exactly what the original poster is complaigning about.

Design No No's and usability problems.

1. The site luanches in a full screen Pop Up Window and is a problem becuase;

A. Many users of the internet use Pop-Up killers and to top it off Mozilla derivatives, except for Netscape, allow you to block them.

B. Opera also allows users to block pop-ups from Onload events.

C. Furthermore many MSIE users have JScript turned OFF for security reasons.

This site would not be seen by users in any of those situations. This is a rather large Design Flaw.

2. The site is not speedy for a 56 Ker. A retail site should not take more than 3 seconds to load and Extraneous Intros don't move product perse. The trend for internet connections is not for users to move up to Broadband but the reverse, becuase of increasing costs of Broadband. When a user visits a Retail site they already know why they are there- To buy your stuff or to check the price of your stuff or to just see what you are selling perhaps. If they can't imediatly find the stuff then the designer has failed.

3. The site makes use of Mystery Meat Navigation. It is not aparent how to navigate the site. The little folding menu is Cool but to somone unacustomed to Flash designs it is confusing. Also the store is quite confusing... To buy and to Browse there are two menus. It would be much better to intergrate it

4. The site seems to use MSIE "Optimized" code. If you can't afford to Design for every Browser then design for W3C standards. However many retailers can not afford to alienate even 1 customer.

[aversion]

has anyone here ever sat in on testing sessions? I have and it forever changed the way i designed sites, it really rammed home to me how little people care about extraneous content. Most people pay little or no attention to imagery, if the link they want is visible they click it, i have never seen anyone wait for a whole page to load... people always skip intros and if a site takes more than 20/30 seconds to load (and i'm talking about a page with nothing but a preloader on it) they leave or, if they have to view the site, they become very annoyed and ask why they have to sit there with no content.

i think it's hard for some designers to overcome their egos, to honestly think about what the user wants rather than what they want.

[LanSite]

Originally posted by johnie
To be completly honest this is exactly what the original poster is complaigning about.

You're exactly right ... I thought I was sounding redundant ... and at the risk of sounding redundant again ... I agree that Flash has a place ... But I don't believe it's on the front page ... not in b2b.

And Aversion ~ you are exactly right!

[psychlonex]

Aversion -
Those are some very good points. I've never seen a testing session, it sounds like something I should check out in the near future. What I usually do when I'm working on a site, is I email the link to a few friends and family members, most of whom are fairly inexperienced computer users. My mom is one of my best testers!

This thread has definitely helped me. I'm starting to see where my sites could use some work. That's one of the hardest parts of being a designer. It's almost impossible to look at something you've built from a user's standpoint.

Are there any sites around that will throw a monkey or two at your site and give you some feedback? I know there are tons of site-check places, but these are usually only frequented by other designers. I'm looking for average Joe/Jane surfers.

Psx

[johnie]

Vince Flanders runs a pretty good site http://www.webpagesthatsuck.com and his book is rather good at pointing out usability issues. He is somewhat anti-Flash but not completly anti-Flash like Neilson is. He makes many valid points about Usability.

There is also a book called "How to Design Really Annoying websites. This is a very informative book on what NOT to do.
Other than that there are several design forms and If I'm not mistaken someone here even runs a Flash Usability site. If I can find the link I'll dig it up.

[psychlonex]

Cool. Thanks Johnie.

I guess I tend to disagree with Neilson's anti-flash theories because I feel that flash could help to make the web MORE useable. I'm really getting into making web-based apps that are hopefully more useable than their html counterparts. One thing I keep seeing myself doing however, is emulating the way html sites work. Take my site for example: http://www.conciousriddims.com

It works much like a regular html site. I'm gonna have to brainstorm a bit and try to find new ways to make it more useable and intuitive.

FK2001 in LA was a great help, most notably the guy who talked about usability (I think his name was Chris MacGregor?) with his "what would walmart do?" analogy. I think there is a link to it somewhere here on FK.

Psx

[Canned_Heat]

Originally posted by aversion
has anyone here ever sat in on testing sessions? I have and it forever changed the way i designed sites
<snip>
Most people pay little or no attention to imagery,
<snip>
i have never seen anyone wait for a whole page to load
<snip>
they become very annoyed and ask why they have to sit there with no content.

i think it's hard for some designers to overcome their egos, to honestly think about what the user wants rather than what they want.

Bingo! Triple bingo!!

Exactly the point of my original post. As an example, I have a current customer whose site I did a number of years ago. The site is probably HTML 1.0 compliant, and unchanged since then (other than product and price changes, of course). The site is a total, and I mean TOTAL piece of crap. Crappy 1980's clipart, pixelated graphics, jaggie GIFs, horrible color themes, and worse. However, the customer will -not- let me change it. Why? Because she gets 10 emails a day telling her what a fantastic site she has. I shudder in embarrassment. However, neither she nor the customers who email know what they really mean. They don't mean it is a great LOOKING site, they think it is great because she happens to sell products at great prices and the pages load faster than you can blink. Other than that, they know nor see little else.

i am just now getting into Flash because I thought it was time. A year ago, I wouldn't have considered it because many people were still getting popup download screens stating they must install the flash player. However, older computers are now falling off the back end and almost everybody's browser is inherently flash-enabled.

I have learned through the school of hard knocks that when I design a customer's site, the site is not for me nor is it for my customer. It is for my -customer's- customer. And if their site turns away a single potential customer because of a slow load, a forced plugin download and install, unsolicited/unwanted music, an incompatibility, or whatever, then I have failed my customer.

The replies in this thread have been great and enlightening to me. After viewing many of the archived sample sites, I was ready to give up on flash before I even started.

However, I can now see that utilizing flash on business sites -can- add usability, functionality, and beauty to a site. But the methodology in how it is employed is the key to it all - flash must be used strategically and sparingly on business sites.

Regards,
CH